Author Topic: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)  (Read 5143 times)

Gutch

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NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« on: January 07, 2012, 07:26:51 PM »
Chances are you've been following Daryl's reports on the trade he and I initiated involving my GT6 baritone and his GC 12 fret.  The guitar actually arrived last Tuesday, but I've been wrapped up with work and related travel all week and unable to spend any decent amount of time with the guitar until yesterday.  As required by UTGF rules (  ;) ), here is my review...

Aesthetics -- Classic simplicity.  I have a few abalone wrapped guitars, and I think they are beautiful.  However, there are times when less is more and simplicity has greater impact on the eye than loading on the bling.  Such is the case with the GC 12 fret.  Classic EIR/Sitka body, Mahogany neck that has been stained darker than what I normally see on a Taylor, simple B/W/B/W/B purfling and Ivoroid binding on the body, neck and soundhole (nice touch).  Rosette is standard Abalone ring.  Fret markers are microdots, and headstock is slotted.  Just classic appointments that look great.  The only thing that I'd like to see added to the lineup in the future would be herringbone or some other kind of subtle marquetry.

Playability -- To put it bluntly, tremendous.  In fact, almost too good.  It was so easy to move around on this fretboard that I was playing things that I've never tried before and they worked easily.  The action was set up very low and I was getting a little fret buzz, but that have been simply humidity adjustment for the guitar (Whole house humidifier keeps my office at about 42% RH).  I will say that I was a bit apprehensive regarding the short scale of this guitar when I agreed to the trade.  I have played several short scale necks from other builders and my left hand tends to cramp up after 10-15 minutes of play on them. Weird, I know, but that's how it's been in the past.  Anyway, the guitar got a solid 5 hour workout last night and it didn't bother my hand once.  that makes me happy.

Tone -- I've been a fan of Cocobolo for about ten years now.  I love the bell like quality of the overtones and the tight bass response.  I have other tonewoods in the herd, but the Coco has been the wood of choice for a while.  One of my favorites is a 912ce custom built with Cocobolo b/s and Engelmann top and 1-7/8" nut.  Essentially a Chris Proctor Sig model with different woods.  This was built prior to the revoicing of the GC in 2004, and has a very focused and clear voice and is one of my favorites.  I've owned Indian Rosewood guitars, including a 000-28EC Clapton Signature and a OMC-28cLJ Juber Signature models.

About a year ago, I became smitten with the new 916ce with Cindy and the abalone fretboard extension trim.  I ordered one with a Florentine cutaway and Tobaccoburst top, thinking it would take time to adapt to the tone of the Indian Rosewood with its more dominant bass and abundant lower harmonics.  To my surprise, the tone of the GS hit me immediately as something I really enjoyed (I swear there's magic in that guitar...).  The CV bracing maintained the signature Taylor sparkle that I love, while controlling the low-midrange overtones that make EIR sound muddy.  Really a nice job.  It was my experience with the 916ce that made me want to go ahead a try the small body again.

Daryl warned me that the strings on the 12 fret were dying, and he generously included a couple new sets of strings for me to try.  I didn't think much of it at the time and when the guitar arrived on Tuesday, I didn't have a lot of time to think about it.  I gave the guitar a quick 30 minute play and decided it sounded okay for now but was not blown away by the tone.  Seemed a bit focused like the 912, a little flat due to the strings.  Okay, it'll do for now.  I have a presentation to finish and a flight to Dallas I need to make.  I'll play later.

I was back in the home office on Friday and gave it a more serious listen.  Daryl was right, strings were dead.  I changed them for my standard for the 912, GHS Juber Signature Bronze.  Sounded okay, a little bright.  Bass was really kind of disappointing, to be honest.  After an hour with the Jubers, I decided to try one of the sets that Daryl sent along with the guitar.  Experiment #1 - Red brand Copper/Bronze strings.

The concept behind copper strings is that they are supposed to add a lot of warmth to the tone of the guitar.  I don't know about other instruments, but in the case of the 12 fret all they did was make the guitar sound like crap.  Muddy, dead, no sparkle, no bass.  Just a lot of low mid and mid push against a field of dead tone.  Fifteen minutes with Red strings was enough.  Off they came, and on went...

Experiment # 2 - DR Rare Phosphor Bronze.  At this point, I'm stringing up the guitar for the third time that day and beginning to wonder if I had made a mistake in this trade.  I finished up stretching the strings and tuning them up, and put the guitar in my lap to play.  The first chord, an open E, told the tale.  The tone I was looking for, I was expecting from the guitar, was finally there!  The sparkle on the highs, the focused bass I was expecting, the balanced mids.  Really a tickle to the ear.  That was what I was wanting from the guitar, and that is what I was getting.  Bravo!!!  Played for a couple more hours after last night, and have snuck in an hour or so of play today, and am truly enjoying the experience.

Does it replace the 916ce?  No, the 12 fret is a much more intimate voice, but in no way is it a feeble guitar.  Responsive to fingers, snappy with a pick, I can see the 12 fret as a go to guitar for plugged in acoustic leads sitting in with my playing partner, a fingerstyle machine, or as a great recording alternative at home.  It is a nice addition to the herd.
‎"Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything."
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Edward

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #1 on: January 07, 2012, 07:53:38 PM »
Great review, Gutch ...thanks for sharing your detailed thoughts.  Not to mention congrats on the new guit!

Like you, I was smitten when I first played a 12 fretter at a Road Show.  There was something "going on" with that guitar: the voice, the playability, the size ...all just melded together in a wonderful, er, harmony :)  I had decided I needed to explore this avenue further when I ended up crossing paths with a certain RTaylor Style 2, and that filled my craving for the 12 fretter.  There is something very special about a smaller-bodied guitar with a voice that defies its size.   Enjoy it!!

Edward

DennisG

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #2 on: January 07, 2012, 08:19:17 PM »
Great job on the 12-fret write-up, Gutch.  It's interesting to see these guitars gain some traction in the marketplace as more and more people discover the kind of ballsy voice these things are capable of producing.  My own 12-fret has become my go-to guitar for pretty much everything I do.
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John429

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #3 on: January 07, 2012, 08:21:34 PM »
Gutch, what a great review I think worthy of being in an Acoustic Guitar magazine! Very educational and really illustrates how string choice can make a big difference in the tone of a guitar.
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sachi

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #4 on: January 07, 2012, 08:32:02 PM »
I'd love to see pictures. I've always been intrigued by Taylor's 12-fretters . . . I hope to try one some day.
Sachi

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Gutch

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #5 on: January 09, 2012, 07:21:50 PM »
Thanks guys.  I'll see what I can do for the pictures.  In the meantime, I direct you to the ad from which the deal was struck for photos...

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=267.0
‎"Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything."
-- Plato

spieler

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #6 on: January 09, 2012, 07:31:04 PM »
Nice review, Gutch. Thanks.

1) I love what Taylor has been doing more recently with the darker stained necks. They look so much better with rosewood, especially.

2) Your impressions of the Red strings matches almost all that I've read so far. I've not tried them myself, and have no inclination to at this point. Does anyone like them, and if so, in what application?

~ S.

dkoloff

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #7 on: January 09, 2012, 08:19:37 PM »
Congrats on the 12 fret and a nice review....I would trya set of John Pearse as well to see how you like on there or even a set of martin silk and string for fun. Make be a bit quiet for you but I am guessing very warm sounding.
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sachi

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #8 on: January 09, 2012, 09:08:51 PM »
Thanks guys.  I'll see what I can do for the pictures.  In the meantime, I direct you to the ad from which the deal was struck for photos...

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=267.0
Oh, lovely.

When Taylor relies on a simpler design, the results are just perfect IMO!
Sachi

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michaelw

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #9 on: January 16, 2012, 08:49:49 PM »
hi Gutch,
i especially like the body aesthetics (cutaway & body contour) on your 12 fretter -
i found it interesting that the body was not 'stretched' upward to meet the 12th fret &
i've heard one other 12 fret on its own, a good while back, at the RoadShow ... nice :)

i was wondering how you would describe the tonal differences between your engelmann/coco GC & the 12 fret -
i realize that tonewoods, body depth, bracing & scale length are different & i've had adi/engel/sitka/coco models
in the past, but i was just wondering how you feel the tone & response contrast & complement each other :D
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Gutch

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #10 on: January 16, 2012, 10:54:02 PM »
Hey Michael!

Hmmm... Tonal differences.  Okay, I'll give it a go....

2003 912ce Cocobolo/Engelmann:  Nine years old, this guitar has been one of my primary players over the years but rarely hit with a flatpick, and I play fingerstyle with no nails - only flesh.  It took a few years to really open up, but I like the way she sounds today.  I would describe the tone as crisp, with tight focused bass (not containing many low frequency overtones/harmonics), very balanced mids, and sparkly top end.  There is not a lot of "air" in its voice -- Focused tone is the word of the day here.  It is very easy to record and, when close mic'd, has a nice woody tone.  A good example of it can be found on a song I wrote called "Getting Reacquainted" here:  http://www.davegutshall.com/DaveGutshall.com/Music.html (Watch out, I mixed the bass a bit hot on this).

By comparison, I would describe the 12 fret GC as having a much softer and warmer voice and much more welcoming to a pick than the 912ce.  The bass is not nearly as tight (has more overtones/harmonics in its tone) and the highs aren't quite as sparkly.  You definitely hear the extra depth of the revised GC body.  I think it could actually be a bit more versatile of an instrument compared to my 912ce in a live performance situation because of the richness of the tone.  I haven't tried recording it yet, but can imagine that it may be a bit more of a challenge to mic to avoid boominess (the Coco is literally throw a mic in front and go..). 

On the downside, it took a bit of fiddling to get the set up right on the 12 fret, maintaining intonation and avoiding fret buzz while keeping the action nice and low.  I spent some time Sunday working it and I think I've gotten close to perfect.  As for the 912ce, it needs to head back to El Cajon for an ES upgrade, a neck reset and a little TLC.  She is a sentimental favorite of mine and I love the 1-7/8" nut width on the neck.  I can't wait to hear how she sounds plugged in with the new system.

I think that's it.  How'd I do?   ;)
« Last Edit: January 16, 2012, 10:56:00 PM by Gutch »
‎"Music is a moral law. It gives soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, and charm and gaiety to life and to everything."
-- Plato

Brian Swerdfeger @ Taylor

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2012, 11:55:37 PM »
Remember that on a 12-fret the bridge is moved back deep into the lower bout. This fundamentally changes how the top moves and the influence of the body. It's really a different guitar than our standard Grand Concert. Warmer, darker, rounder and all good adjectives that apply to any wood combination on a 12-fret.

DennisG

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #12 on: January 17, 2012, 12:23:25 AM »
Brian's description of a 12-fret mirrors my experience exactly.  There's just no comparison between a standard GC and a 12-fret GC.  They're entirely different animals.
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michaelw

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2012, 05:47:45 PM »
Hey Michael!

Hmmm... Tonal differences.  Okay, I'll give it a go....

2003 912ce Cocobolo/Engelmann:  Nine years old, this guitar has been one of my primary players over the years but rarely hit with a flatpick, and I play fingerstyle with no nails - only flesh.  It took a few years to really open up, but I like the way she sounds today.  I would describe the tone as crisp, with tight focused bass (not containing many low frequency overtones/harmonics), very balanced mids, and sparkly top end.  There is not a lot of "air" in its voice -- Focused tone is the word of the day here.  It is very easy to record and, when close mic'd, has a nice woody tone.  A good example of it can be found on a song I wrote called "Getting Reacquainted" here:  http://www.davegutshall.com/DaveGutshall.com/Music.html (Watch out, I mixed the bass a bit hot on this).

By comparison, I would describe the 12 fret GC as having a much softer and warmer voice and much more welcoming to a pick than the 912ce.  The bass is not nearly as tight (has more overtones/harmonics in its tone) and the highs aren't quite as sparkly.  You definitely hear the extra depth of the revised GC body.  I think it could actually be a bit more versatile of an instrument compared to my 912ce in a live performance situation because of the richness of the tone.  I haven't tried recording it yet, but can imagine that it may be a bit more of a challenge to mic to avoid boominess (the Coco is literally throw a mic in front and go..). 

On the downside, it took a bit of fiddling to get the set up right on the 12 fret, maintaining intonation and avoiding fret buzz while keeping the action nice and low.  I spent some time Sunday working it and I think I've gotten close to perfect.  As for the 912ce, it needs to head back to El Cajon for an ES upgrade, a neck reset and a little TLC.  She is a sentimental favorite of mine and I love the 1-7/8" nut width on the neck.  I can't wait to hear how she sounds plugged in with the new system.

I think that's it.  How'd I do?   ;)
hi Gutch,
wow :o

thank you so much for taking the time to describe the tone of those two guitars - i can definitely relate to how you feel about
your 912ce engelmann/coco, as it is very similar to the way i felt about the 03 714cLTD engelmann/coco i had, even with the
GA body, it, too, was pre Standard II with a 900 grade engelmann top & the GA size/bluegrass strings gave it a bit more 'air'

i can see where you're coming from with the 12 fret, also & i realize that the bridge placement & bracing is specific to
that model, as the body contours are 'unstretched' -  what i hear in a sitka/rosewood model parallels the way that you
described it also (bass & treble response) & it's nice to know that if in the future if either one of us is interested in &,
or, looking to potentially buy, sell, or swap a guitar, that we are likely on the 'same book & page' at least 'on paper'

by asking for your take on those two guitars, i was trying to compare, in my mind, the experience i've had with guitars
i've played & owned to see how similar, or different, our word phrasing might be & what i really 'after' was not a direct
'head-to-head' comparison, but how each guitar responded & how you felt how each was 'equipped' to do a certain 'job'

thank you for posting the link to your music -
i enjoyed each track, especially the keith urbanesque vibe to 'one shot &
'meditation', in which i heard a bit of lifehouse 'you & me' influence in it ...

very nice music & very cool music 8)

have fun at NAMM :)
play on ;D
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darylcrisp

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Re: NGD - GC 12 Fret (long post)
« Reply #14 on: January 18, 2012, 01:22:38 AM »
Hi Gutch

i've meant to email and see how things were going with you and the 12, was on-call all weekend at work and it was quite busy-still trying to catch up with daily life as the work week is busier than norm.

that action on the 12 was "as is" from a Roadshow. The folks played the heck out it that night and did a lot with it amped, then acoustically. It sounded great-course, they are not slouches playing either.
sounds like its interesting for you.
digging the GT6. it is a new dog, new breed. stuck some lighter gauge Baritones, John Pearse 3260L and like those a lot. Will take some time to figure it out, but i really like its sound and easy play.

d
« Last Edit: January 18, 2012, 01:31:23 AM by darylcrisp »