Author Topic: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar  (Read 8943 times)

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #15 on: October 02, 2014, 09:25:17 PM »
my house generally runs right around 55-56%.  Doesn't seem to be damp enough to muddy my guitars.  Maybe it's just time for some new strings?

Yeah, I think that's where I'm headed on this one too.  I'll be able to change the strings early next week, so I'll report back after I've done so.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

CodeBlueEMT

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2014, 12:49:44 AM »
 Read post #37 and #38: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359129&page=3

 I thought of you when I saw the link in post #38 Ceiling Fans, the Silent Tone Killers :)
Shayne

2023 Gibson Custom '57 Les Paul Goldtop
2017 Taylor T5z Pro SE "Erwin"
2014 Taylor 524ce
2013 Martin 000-28EC Sunburst
2011 Taylor 314ce
2008 Taylor SB-1 Classic
1999 Taylor XXV-DR 25th Anniversary
Hard Knocks Custom Esquire "Miss Bettie"

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2014, 09:04:49 AM »
Read post #37 and #38: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=359129&page=3

 I thought of you when I saw the link in post #38 Ceiling Fans, the Silent Tone Killers :)

You know, it's funny that you bring that up...

My playing room at my place in Lorena is basically the dining room; no ceiling fan.  My playing room here is part of a great room that combines a family room with the kitchen area and a breakfast nook.  There's a ceiling fan directly over my playing spot....

Now, believe it or not, this thought about the fan affecting tone actually already crossed my mind already.  When I sat down for my first practice session during this trip to San Antonio, the fan was whirling full blast (normally I turn it to the lowest setting, which leaves just a trickle of air moving).  I started playing and immediately noticed something was sounding weird.  For some reason, I almost immediately thought of the ceiling fan, turned it down to the lowest setting, and resumed practicing.  Things sounded much better.

But during this trip back, I've not turned the ceiling fan all the way off.  In San Antonio during the hot months between, well, April and November, it's just common to turn the things on and forget about them.  I'll turn it off today and see if the sound quality of my Makore GA improves any.  I tend to doubt it in this particular case (I really believe the strings are just kaput; and the guitar initially sounded fine, even with the ceiling fan on low), but it's free to try it...!

Thanks for the thought, Shayne!
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Earl

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2014, 11:53:53 AM »
I've read the AGF ceiling fan thread through.  Interesting.  I recall that formal laboratory reverberation room tests, done to measure the absorption coefficients of materials, include a fan in the room to help break up potential standing waves which might affect the average value.  Fans affect your guitar sound by introducing reflections that have variable phase, and by simply varying the pattern of reflections coming back at your ears.  There is a closer surface moving past at intervals.  Air speed from the fan is not really a factor, as the speed of sound in air is ~1130 fps - a tiny fraction of the air movement speed inside the room. 
Taylors:  424-LTD (all koa) and a 114ce that lives with friends in Alaska.  Low maintenance carbon fiber guitars are my "thing" these days, but I will always keep the koa 424.  Several ukulele and bass guitars too. 
*Gone but not forgotten:  a 2001 414ce, 410, 354-LTD twelve string, 314-N, 416-LTD baritone, T5 Classic, 615ce, 2006 GS-K, 1996 (first year) Baby

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #19 on: October 03, 2014, 12:09:58 PM »
I've read the AGF ceiling fan thread through.  Interesting.  I recall that formal laboratory reverberation room tests, done to measure the absorption coefficients of materials, include a fan in the room to help break up potential standing waves which might affect the average value.  Fans affect your guitar sound by introducing reflections that have variable phase, and by simply varying the pattern of reflections coming back at your ears.  There is a closer surface moving past at intervals.  Air speed from the fan is not really a factor, as the speed of sound in air is ~1130 fps - a tiny fraction of the air movement speed inside the room.

That was kind-of my impression the other day:  that I was just getting weird sound reflections from the higher fan speed.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #20 on: October 03, 2014, 06:51:51 PM »
OK.  Tried playing with the ceiling fan off as opposed to running at its lowest speed (~120 RPM).  I don't think there was a really perceptible sound difference in that case; if I truly noticed any difference, it was probably only because I was focused on trying to find one.  Turning the fan off certainly didn't improve the tone quality of my Makore GA; it still sounds like, well, the strings are old.  At this point, I get more of a 'thud' sound (rather than a ringing note) from the A and D strings...

At the fan's highest speed (probably around 600+ RPM), it seemed I'd hear a more 'compressed' sound as I played; maybe a little 'warbly.'  But again, this could be nothing more than confirmation bias...  Or just an effect caused by the more perceptible 'whooshing' noise of the fan blades as they move the air...  Either way, I ultimately prefer to have the fan on it's lowest speed or off -- if for no other reason than to avoid adding background 'white' noise as I play.

Still, it's odd that I'd immediately thought about the ceiling fan causing the weird 'sound effect' even before Shayne even pointed us toward that thread... ???
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #21 on: October 07, 2014, 10:58:35 PM »
Latest on this:

I got back to Lorena Sunday evening, but didn't have time to deal with the guitars at that point.  As I wanted to play them in my practice area in my house in Lorena before changing strings, I set them out in the guitar stands overnight so they'd have time to 'settle' in with the ambient conditions (just as I'd been doing in San Antonio).  The next morning, I began by playing my Makore GA.  Frankly, it didn't sound as muddy when I got it back to Lorena, but I suspect the room in which I'm playing here is just a bit 'brighter' room; considerably smaller and my playing position is closer to a reflective surface (windows).  Still, I could hear the 'thumpy-sounding' A and D strings, particularly on a C or G chord, and the strings had the tell-tale staining of old strings.  Checked my GS Mini; it still sounded about the same as I remember it sounding in San Antonio, but I frankly hadn't play it nearly as much as the Makore GA.  But its strings were more stained than my Makore GA, which wasn't surprising given the comparatively greater amount of overall playing time since its last string change.

So, I swapped out the strings on both guitars.  Before restringing, I cleaned the fretboard as described in the Taylor literature (0000 steel wool).  Both guitars definitely sounded better afterwards; but if I listened closely enough, the A and D strings of the Makore GA still had a bit of pronounced bass that I really hadn't noticed before (or have forgotten).  And perhaps that's the main issue here:  I've been playing my jangly-bright 12-string guitars much more than my 6-string guitars, and perhaps I've just gotten progressively acclimated to its sound that strumming on one of my 6-strings is sounding a bit 'off' to me...?  Or maybe the guitar has opened up on the bass end a bit more...?

Anyway, I played the Makore for an hour or so, then put it away.  My plan now is to not play it for the next couple of weeks, take it back to San Antonio with essentially new strings on it, and see what it sounds like there in its current state...

Stay tuned...  ;)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

CodeBlueEMT

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #22 on: October 09, 2014, 12:59:23 AM »
*Ceiling Fans, the Silent Thread Killers ;)

Shayne

2023 Gibson Custom '57 Les Paul Goldtop
2017 Taylor T5z Pro SE "Erwin"
2014 Taylor 524ce
2013 Martin 000-28EC Sunburst
2011 Taylor 314ce
2008 Taylor SB-1 Classic
1999 Taylor XXV-DR 25th Anniversary
Hard Knocks Custom Esquire "Miss Bettie"

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #23 on: October 10, 2014, 10:47:07 AM »
*Ceiling Fans, the Silent Thread Killers ;)

Indeed!  :)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

SBMike

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #24 on: October 11, 2014, 02:38:24 PM »
A lot of good points. I wipe my guitars after 90% of uses and I am wondering if this is enough? I also wash my hands 90% of the time beforehand. Additionally I wipe down my guitar wood with lighter fluid (naptha) 75% of the time, including the tuning pegs. This gives me a ton more play time.

WE all have inherently oily fingers that pick up a lot of residue. The phosphor bronze, nickel strings are porous.
If you look microscopically at them they have voids, holes and irregularities on the outside.

My whole point, if you're still reading, is that wiping down strings only gets so much of this residue.

I wonder if some string company or tech ever took microscope pictures of string corrosion with different playing conditions and temperature and time?

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2014, 01:38:51 PM »
OK.  I know all of you have been on the edge of your seats waiting for my findings.  Here they are -- and I think I've stumbled onto a somewhat unexpected answer, at least in this case.  I'll try not to get too long-winded in my report... ;)

Firstly, what it was not:

CEILING FAN -- While the operating ceiling fan did produce some weird sound reflections, particularly with the treble strings, it was not the source of the 'muddiness.'
DAMAGE -- There was a period of time where I began to wonder if something had happened to the guitar.  Did I jar something loose while transporting it?  Was there a manufacturing defect (e.g., weakly glued bracing) that has only now beginning to surface?  I frankly had to wonder...  Thankfully, that did not seem to end up being the case.
HUMIDITY -- The humidity in my San Antonio playing area, according to the hygrometer I purchased around the beginning of this thread, has averaged about 50% RH.  On the high end of the target zone, but perfectly acceptable.

Some of the contributing factors:

PICK -- My preferred pick (Dunlop .73mm ULTEX Sharp), which I have yet to replace, seems to produces a brighter sound.  I've continued to use the 'generic' substitute pick I had on hand in an effort to reduce the number of variables leading to the answer.  Ultimately, the pick was almost a non-contributor, but that may be because the substitute pick has similar properties to my preferred pick.
STRINGS -- The strings were definitely old, and I'm sure contributed to the dull-sounding guitar.  But they were not the source of this particular problem.
STRUMMING TECHNIQUE -- Lumped with this I'll throw in guitar positioning.  I found that, probably as a result of playing my GS 12-strings more frequently, I was letting my GA-bodied guitars sit a bit lower in my lap.  As a result, I think I was not evenly strumming all of the strings, in particular the treble strings.  I'd also thought that, perhaps, I was strumming a bit too hard for my GA Makore; my 12-strings seem to like a bit more thrashing.  But ultimately that really didn't seem to enter into the solution.  As a side note, it seems that each guitar I have has a strumming 'sweet spot' that makes it sound best.  For a given body type, it's more-or-less in the same spot, so muscle memory helps one to keep playing there.  But when switching between body styles (e.g., GS to GA), it requires a bit of re-calibrating.

The culprit:

ROOM ACOUSTICS -- When I got back into San Antonio, I took a few days to play my newly-strung GA Makore in exactly the same spot in the great room of my house.  Not really any improvement that I could perceive; it still sounded a bit flat, 'boomy,' or 'muddy.'  I tried swiveling around on my stool to see if pointing in another direction helped.  Not really.  Over the past several years, that area of the great room had accumulated a bit of clutter; mostly empty boxes and packing materials from things I'd bought, and that I had become lazy in either properly storing or disposing (forgive me; I am my mother's child, so I have a tendency to save these things in case I ever need to return or transport the item -- and my career has turned me into something of a nomad...).  So after a few days, I gathered up all the clutter and moved it out of the room entirely.  This expanded the playing area to the point where I decided to reposition my playing spot to the corner, back to the walls, and play toward the open room.  When I pulled out my GA Makore, something remarkable happened -- I started hearing the guitar that I'd bought again:  clear and well-balanced.  My best guess is that my original playing spot in the room was just coincidentally located at a point of destructive acoustic interference, and my bright-sounding GA Makore was particularly susceptible to it.  That spot just seemed to kill a lot of the treble response.  I tried moving back to the original spot to confirm it and it does seem to be the case, even without the room clutter (although I think it was worse with all that absorptive cardboard and styrofoam).

So there you have it kiddies!  If you don't like the way your guitar sounds, try cleaning house and moving to a new spot...! ;)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Frettingflyer

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2014, 05:40:14 PM »
Thanks Tim, I really have been wondering and appreciate the update. I am also very happy for you that your guitars are fine and it was the clutter.
Dave
2014 Koa GS Mini-e FLTD (for the wife)
2004 314ce,
2014 custom GC Coco/Euro spruce
2015 Wildwood 812ce 12 fret
2016 522ce 12 fret
2019 K24ce BE
2021 322e
2017 Blackbird Lucky 13
2019 Mcpherson Sable

guitarsrsoawesome

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #27 on: October 25, 2014, 08:18:33 PM »
Room acoustics are an amazing phenomena.  It's amazing how some of these rooms orchestras play are specifically designed to enhance tone, volume, etc of the musicians.  For me, I really enjoy playing my guitar in rooms with hardwoods, lots of reflective surfaces.

November 2013 Taylor 514ce ES2
November 2011 Taylor GS Mini Mahogany

timfitz63

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #28 on: October 25, 2014, 09:44:11 PM »
Thanks Tim, I really have been wondering and appreciate the update. I am also very happy for you that your guitars are fine and it was the clutter.

No worries, Dave!  Glad to help out!

Room acoustics are an amazing phenomena.  It's amazing how some of these rooms orchestras play are specifically designed to enhance tone, volume, etc of the musicians.  For me, I really enjoy playing my guitar in rooms with hardwoods, lots of reflective surfaces.

It really is something!  It was almost on a lark that I picked up all the clutter and moved my playing spot.  Like you, I seem to prefer more 'reflective' rooms in which to play; and this great room is fairly reflective:  painted walls, quite a bit of wood cabinetry creating a 'perimeter' for the kitchen area, several windows, and tile flooring throughout.  What I'm reminded now, however, is that all of those highly-reflective surfaces can sometimes work against you as well...

In the end, though, of all the places in which I've lived since picking up the guitar again a couple years ago, this great room in my San Antonio residence has become the most pleasing room in which to play -- all just by finding the right spot to sit...!  It's open and reflective without being an echo chamber.  I'm going to tinker with my playing spot in my Lorena residence to see if I can find a similar 'sweet' spot; but my options there are a bit more limited.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

CodeBlueEMT

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Re: 'Muddy' Sounding Guitar
« Reply #29 on: October 26, 2014, 01:04:52 AM »
 Clutter, the Silent Tone Killers

 It's inevitable this topic will come up again. I move my clutter around to avoid stepping on it. Two of my Cooperstands didn't get the memo. Most of the time my toe(s) pay the ultimate price, but clutter doesn't muddy my tone. What's my secret?

 I play standing up. ;)

   
Shayne

2023 Gibson Custom '57 Les Paul Goldtop
2017 Taylor T5z Pro SE "Erwin"
2014 Taylor 524ce
2013 Martin 000-28EC Sunburst
2011 Taylor 314ce
2008 Taylor SB-1 Classic
1999 Taylor XXV-DR 25th Anniversary
Hard Knocks Custom Esquire "Miss Bettie"