'Muddy' Sounding Guitar

[timfitz63]

This is something that's been kind-of aggravating me, but only for the past few days.  And being the inquisitive engineering-type, I'm compelled to seek an answer/solution.  I have a theory or two about what may be going on, but to avoid biasing responses, I'll hold them for the moment.

What will cause two different guitars to rapidly start sounding 'muddy?'  'Muddy' to my ears means unbalanced in the bass response -- heavy and 'boom' bass from otherwise bright-sounding and well-balanced guitars (my Sitka/Makore GA and my Euro/Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle GS-12).

Right now, I'm at my residence in San Antonio, whereas I have mostly been playing at my residence in Lorena; so the rooms I'm using are sized and furnished differently.  Acknowledging that the acoustics are going to be different, I will mention that I've played in this room in San Antonio before, and have not previously had any perceptions of 'muddiness.'

I've brought three guitars (the Makore GA; the Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle GS-12; and my GS Mini, in case I wanted something portable) with me from Lorena.  Given the choice, I prefer playing the GA and GS-12 over the GS Mini, so those are the two I've been using since arriving in San Antonio, with the GS Mini remaining in its case the entire time.  The strings on my Makore GA and GS Mini are probably nearing the ends of their lives, but the ones on my Tasmanian Tiger Myrtle GS-12 are still in pretty good shape, so I've kind-of ruled out strings.  I don't have any new sets of strings with me to test out that premise; my replacement string sets are in Lorena, and I'd prefer not to go out and buy more of what I've already got just to dispel that one assumption.

I will also mention that my preferred pick began cracking about a week ago, and finally broke yesterday; so I'm using another brand of pick until I can get a replacement for it.  But the guitars were starting to sound 'muddy' to me even before my preferred pick broke, and still sound 'muddy' with the substitute picks I have on hand (I've tried two entire different brands), so I'm inclined to rule out the picks as well.

As recently as a few days ago, both the GA and GS-12 sounded 'normal' to me.  Yesterday, both had been sitting in a guitar stand, out of their respective cases for most of the day (as has been my practice since arriving last Wednesday from Lorena; both guitars have been returned to their cases, with presumably good [at least they're not rock-hard] Humidipaks, for overnight storage).  But both started sounding 'muddy' when I began practicing on-and-off yesterday afternoon and evening; the Makore GA sounded particularly off to me.  Ultimately, I was tired (and becoming aggravated), so I put he guitars away and hit the sack.  After about 10 hours or so stored in their cases, the Makore GA sounded a bit better; I don't know if it was confirmation bias or what.  I left it in the guitar stand while I ran out of the house for a few hours, and when I got back, it was sounding 'muddy' again.  I checked the GS-12, which I'd also put out in it's guitar stand, and it was sounding about the same as yesterday evening -- 'muddy,' but not to the extent to which the Makore GA was.  But that could just be because it's a 'jangly' 12-string...  I pulled out the GS Mini, and straight out of its case it sounded a bit 'muddy' too.  Now, a few months back I had only brought the GS Mini with me to San Antonio, and at that time I didn't have any perception of 'muddiness' from it.  On a lark, I pulled up the local atmospheric conditions for the past three days in San Antonio.  It's interesting how much the relative humidity has varied over that period; and how rapidly it's trended toward dryness from a couple days ago...

So what's going on here folks?  Is it all in my mind?  Changing atmospheric conditions?  Pick?  Strings?  A combination?

[guitarsrsoawesome]

I have experienced the muddy tone especially when humidity is high.  The wood absorbs the moisture and the result is the apparent deepening/muddying of the tone.  One thing you might do is go to Lowe's/Home Depot and get a hygrometer to measure the humidity in the room where the guitars are stored.  It is probably different than the outside humidity.  I bought one for about $12

Also, if the room is really humid (say 60% or above, a good range is 45-55%), that will definitely effect the strings.  If they're Elixirs, not so much but even newish uncoated strings will loose their sparkle quickly when the humidity is high

Finally, I have definitely noticed tone changes with different picks.  I ponied up for a blue chip, which in my view, makes guitars sound brighter.  When I use Dunlop nylons, they seem to make the tone deeper, though, so I feel there is something to that.

Hope this helps.

[timfitz63]

I have experienced the muddy tone especially when humidity is high.  The wood absorbs the moisture and the result is the apparent deepening/muddying of the tone.  One thing you might do is go to Lowe's/Home Depot and get a hygrometer to measure the humidity in the room where the guitars are stored.  It is probably different than the outside humidity.  I bought one for about $12...

That's been my experience too:  higher humidity levels 'muddy' the guitar's sound.  Which was sort-of why I brought up the atmospheric conditions for the past three days:  the relative humidity has been trending pretty dramatically downward (drier), yet the guitar has started sounding more 'muddy.'  It seems the more I play it, the worse it's sounding...

The house stays at a relatively comfortable humidity level, although I have nothing here that specifically regulates air moisture.  You're probably right:  I should pick up a couple hygrometers to have here in San Antonio, if nothing else to use as a reference.

The entire HVAC system at my San Antonio residence is pretty new (installed in 2009).  And with the temperatures being what they are in Texas right now, the A/C runs pretty regularly and keeps the humidity level pretty comfortable.  I can't imagine it's significantly higher than outside conditions; in fact, it's probably somewhat lower.  And probably lower than my place in Lorena, on average (newer and better HVAC system here).  But I don't know the actual moisture content (%RH) of the air inside the house.

... Also, if the room is really humid (say 60% or above, a good range is 45-55%), that will definitely effect the strings.  If they're Elixirs, not so much but even newish uncoated strings will loose their sparkle quickly when the humidity is high...

This has been where I've started to lean (perhaps somewhat hopefully as a quick and inexpensive solution):  strings.  The strings (Elixirs) were fairly old to begin with (~1 year old); and with the initially higher humidity levels, they may have just reached the end of their service life.  But I wouldn't have expected such a noticeably dramatic deterioration over the course of only a few days...  I can't really tell if the treble strings have just gone 'flat' or something else is going on to give me the perception that the guitar has become bass-heavy...  It seems that the three bass strings -- and particularly the A and D strings -- have become more 'boomy...'  Would these kinds of things happen when the strings are old...?

And before everyone starts squawking at me for not changing the strings more frequently:  keep in mind that I have multiple guitars that I cycle through a playing rotation.  So each guitar gets played for about a week, then put back into the rotation.  As I usually pull out both a 6-string and a 12-string for my practice sessions, the 12-strings get rotated through more quickly since I have fewer of them; but each 6-string gets played for once a week maybe every eight weeks.  Or about 6 weeks over the course of a year -- about the lifetime of Elixirs that see daily use...  I'm also pretty fastidious about washing my hand before playing -- and wiping down the strings after.  And during any given practice session, I tend to play the 12-string proportionally more than the 6-string.  And my body chemistry doesn't seem to be particularly 'corrosive' to strings... 

... Finally, I have definitely noticed tone changes with different picks.  I ponied up for a blue chip, which in my view, makes guitars sound brighter.  When I use Dunlop nylons, they seem to make the tone deeper, though, so I feel there is something to that...

I have too.  Since I also prefer a brighter sound, and not being familiar with Blue Chip picks, I looked them up.  Frankly, I was a bit shocked by the prices!  Those things better be made of "indestructium" and be hand-delivered by a supermodel...!   Maybe someday...

For now, I (and my wallet) like the Dunlop ULTEX Sharp picks; I've been using .73mm.  Prior to that I was using the Dunlop Gator Grip .71mm Purple picks, but they're not as bright as the ULTEX Sharp.  The downside seems to be that the ULTEX Sharp picks are a bit more brittle...

[CodeBlueEMT]

 Hi Tim. I'm thinking environmental/atmospheric issues. I know you're in Texas and I'm here in North Carolina, but here goes.

 We've cooled off over the past few weeks and I've noticed the RH increasing inside the house. Cooler weather has given the central air conditioning somewhat of a break. My thermostat is set on 74 degrees. The RH in my music room is presently at 60%. I can lower the thermosat 2 degrees and the RH will drop well below 55%. It doesn't feel humid inside the house. Outside, it's 63 degree with 96% RH. It doesn't feel that humid outside either. Get a hygrometer.

 I've used Ultex picks before. I presently use Dunlop Gator Grips (.71mm), just wish there was something between the .71 - .96mm.

 Hope you get things figured out well before winter itch begins. Take care.     

[Redwood Tree]

Definetly strings . You'd be suprised, what a new set of strings make.  after a 5 day break in period you'll feel and hear what you bought you guitar for.
 And yes hunidity is a big issue , sometimes they sound great and some times not so great.
 Your guitars are alive   and will change day to day with moisture contant., and baro. pressure
 I love when the moon and stars are aligned....... Magic !

[timfitz63]

Hi Tim. I'm thinking environmental/atmospheric issues. I know you're in Texas and I'm here in North Carolina, but here goes.

 We've cooled off over the past few weeks and I've noticed the RH increasing inside the house. Cooler weather has given the central air conditioning somewhat of a break. My thermostat is set on 74 degrees. The RH in my music room is presently at 60%. I can lower the thermosat 2 degrees and the RH will drop well below 55%. It doesn't feel humid inside the house. Outside, it's 63 degree with 96% RH. It doesn't feel that humid outside either. Get a hygrometer.

 I've used Ultex picks before. I presently use Dunlop Gator Grips (.71mm), just wish there was something between the .71 - .96mm.

 Hope you get things figured out well before winter itch begins. Take care.

Thanks, Shayne!

Frankly, that was my initial guess too.  Clearly as the temperatures around here cool overnight, the relative humidity level goes up; that's also apparent from examining the weather observations from the airport.  The curious thing that stumped me (when I got my hands on the data) was the data showed the opposite of what I'd expected:  the average humidity level has trended downward (toward dryness) since I first began to perceive of this 'muddy' sound, which as "guitarsrsoawsome" pointed out, usually relieves any 'muddiness' in the sound...

But either way, I need to get a hygrometer...

Definetly strings . You'd be suprised, what a new set of strings make.  after a 5 day break in period you'll feel and hear what you bought you guitar for.
 And yes hunidity is a big issue , sometimes they sound great and some times not so great.
 Your guitars are alive   and will change day to day with moisture contant., and baro. pressure
 I love when the moon and stars are aligned....... Magic !

Hi, Tom!

This is where I think I've wound up myself:  strings.  The strings have been replaced before on this guitar (like I said, about a year ago).  When I last replaced them, the guitar didn't sound too off; but a visual examination of the strings indicated they were getting fairly old.  I really did notice an immediate improvement of the sound quality when the new strings got onto the guitar.  I guess it's no different than when a car gets a tune-up:  it's been such a gradual decline in performance that when the new components are installed, it seems like a new car...

As I've focused on this issue with my Makore GA, I've tried to isolate which of the guitars I have here are really exhibiting this 'muddiness.'  Last night, after all three guitars had been out for a while (the GA and GS-12, again, for most of the day), I played the same couple of songs on all of them.  When strummed (all using the same pick), the Makore GA sounded very 'muddy' to me; boomy-sounding bass that is uncharacteristic of this guitar.  Same kind of impression with the GS Mini, but not quite as off as my Makore GA.  I tried "Stairway To Heaven" and "Dust In The Wind" just to see if finger picking gave me any other impressions; a bit better-sounding than when strummed, but again, the Makore GA really sounded off -- kind of 'flat'...  I tried strumming lightly; both still sounded 'muddy' and off...  But the GS-12 (coincidentally, the guitar with the newest strings) still sounded pretty balanced -- certainly by comparison to the other two.  It could be that when I initially lumped it in with the Makore GA as sounding 'muddy,' I was tired and aggravated, so everything I touched sounded bad simply because of my mood...

So, it looks like it's time to change the strings on the ol' Makore and GS Mini.  I'll report back on the results, once I get back to Lorena next week and pull a couple sets of replacement Elixirs from my pile of goodies...  Thanks to all for being a sounding board (pardon the pun)!

[guitarsrsoawesome]

I'd still get the hygrometer.  This post has me really curious as to what's going on inside that room

PS. The blue chip pics are shocking...the feel is nothing like I've experienced.  They grab the string while also sliding right by.  It increases confidence in grabbing single notes a lot.  Are they worth $35?  Pretty sure that's too much, but if they were < $20 I'd buy several of them.  As of now, my lone blue chip is hiding again.  It's in the house though.  Somewhere. LOL!

[timfitz63]

I'd still get the hygrometer.  This post has me really curious as to what's going on inside that room...

Yeah, I've got a Home Depot nearby.  They've got one in stock by a company named AcuRite that's pretty inexpensive and has a pretty high custom-rating (for whatever that's worth).  Hopefully the price is not a reflection on its accuracy, though...!   So unless someone can recommend better, I think I'll run in there and grab one or two (for both houses) of those...

... PS. The blue chip pics are shocking...the feel is nothing like I've experienced.  They grab the string while also sliding right by.  It increases confidence in grabbing single notes a lot.  Are they worth $35?  Pretty sure that's too much, but if they were < $20 I'd buy several of them.  As of now, my lone blue chip is hiding again.  It's in the house though.  Somewhere. LOL!

Geez!  If I had a pick that cost that much it would pretty-much be on my person at all times!

[Earl]

Tim, RH outdoors and RH indoors are two completely different things.  Extra humidity outdoors will eventually translate to damper conditions inside, but I've found that indoor activities like cooking and showering and temperature control tends to control the indoor humidity far more than the outdoor conditions.  With the house buttoned up tight (you mentioned using the AC) there may be more moisture indoors than you realize.  No way to really know without a hygrometer, watching the indoor readings.

Not to contradict previous posts, but my experience is that the indoor humidity has far more effect on the wood than on the strings.  For example, most of my guitars spend much of the winter heating season in their cases with humidifiers.  I notice that the strings tend to corrode some even without playing hours logged, but I've never really noticed that the string tone changes with humidity level - at least in any way I can perceive.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

I don't know, Mr. Earl, when the humid summer months rolled around, the uncoated FX 80/20's I love became virtually useless.  Three days in they were muddy and dull, and would oxidize more quickly.  During drier conditions I could have them on a couple or even three weeks.  But in the "dirty south" where I live high humidity can be the summer norm, I had to switch to Elixirs (polyweb) so i wouldn't have to change strings every three days, and even they went bad after three months...

[timfitz63]

Tim, RH outdoors and RH indoors are two completely different things.  Extra humidity outdoors will eventually translate to damper conditions inside, but I've found that indoor activities like cooking and showering and temperature control tends to control the indoor humidity far more than the outdoor conditions.  With the house buttoned up tight (you mentioned using the AC) there may be more moisture indoors than you realize.  No way to really know without a hygrometer, watching the indoor readings...

I hear ya, Earl!  I promise to get a hygrometer!

But I can definitely feel a difference in the humidity levels between the conditions outdoor and indoor of my house.  Even today, when I just came in from meeting a friend for lunch, the outdoor humidity level is (according to the current report from KSAT) around 50%; if feels noticeably less humid (and, of course, cooler) inside my house (I'm guessing in the 40-45% range at 75 deg F).  It's gotten a bit more sticky here during the past day or so, with a front getting ready to push through.  They're predicting showers tomorrow, followed by cooler and drier conditions through the weekend.  It's just the time of year for a lot of rapidly-varing conditions...

Incidentally, I pulled my Makore GA out immediately after returning from my lunch date; after ~14-15 hours in its case (i.e., presumably at the proper humidity level), it still sounds pretty 'muddy' -- and it tended to worsen as I played it...  I then pulled out my GS-12 and played it straight out of the case; it sounded pretty balanced and clear...

... Not to contradict previous posts, but my experience is that the indoor humidity has far more effect on the wood than on the strings.  For example, most of my guitars spend much of the winter heating season in their cases with humidifiers.  I notice that the strings tend to corrode some even without playing hours logged, but I've never really noticed that the string tone changes with humidity level - at least in any way I can perceive.

I don't know, Mr. Earl, when the humid summer months rolled around, the uncoated FX 80/20's I love became virtually useless.  Three days in they were muddy and dull, and would oxidize more quickly.  During drier conditions I could have them on a couple or even three weeks.  But in the "dirty south" where I live high humidity can be the summer norm, I had to switch to Elixirs (polyweb) so i wouldn't have to change strings every three days, and even they went bad after three months...

I can see where humidity levels will indirectly affect the strings' tone quality.  Higher humidity levels mean more moisture in the air, which naturally accelerates the corrosion process of nearly any metal.  And I think that's all "guitarsrsoawsome" is saying:  the tone quality of strings will degrade more quickly in higher-humidity environments.  Those on my Makore GA may have just been on the cusp of being worn out, and the preceding few days of high humidity (80%+ outside of the house, mostly due to two days of rain showers; much more sporadic operation of the HVAC because the temperatures were lower -- which, in turn, probably allowed indoor humidity condition to creep up) simply pushed them over the edge.  At least that's my working theory at the moment...  If true, though, it's kind of astounding how rapid the end came...

But I agree with Earl that the tone quality of strings is almost certainly unaffected by 'instantaneous' humidity conditions.  If the strings are in good condition, they will sound equally good (at that instant in time) whether the ambient relative humidity is 30% or 90%.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Hey Tim, i have the accurite one and it seems to do fine.  It's also small enough to put in your case to try to determine what the humidity is in the case.  But my trust in it may be a bit blind because I don't have another, more expensive, hygrometer to compare it to...

[timfitz63]

Hey Tim, i have the accurite one and it seems to do fine.  It's also small enough to put in your case to try to determine what the humidity is in the case.  But my trust in it may be a bit blind because I don't have another, more expensive, hygrometer to compare it to...

Cool!  Thanks for the feedback!

[timfitz63]

For all those who are interested:

Went out to the local Home Depot and picked up a couple of these hygrometers.  Set them both up in the area where I've been playing and they both settled in on the same reading:  about 50% RH at 75 deg F.  So perhaps on the high end of ideal for Taylor guitars, but within the desired range.  Just to be certain they were functioning and not locked in on some mid-range reading, I picked up one of them and walked out into my garage, the conditions in which are much closer to the outside conditions.  The humidity reading immediately jumped upward, and after about five minutes, settled in around 70-75% at 80 deg F.  Having just been outside (returning from Home Depot), I was satisfied it was giving me a reasonable accurate read on the %RH and temperature; it was pretty warm and sticky today in San Antonio.

As I write this post, both have been sitting in my playing area for the better part of 4 hours; they're both reading 56% RH at 72 deg F.  But I made myself some dinner a little while ago, and was boiling some water in the adjacent kitchen.  So the conditions in my playing area aren't too bad.  I'll continue to monitor it.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

my house generally runs right around 55-56%.  Doesn't seem to be damp enough to muddy my guitars.  Maybe it's just time for some new strings?