Marketing vs. Improvements

[ataylor]

...He admits that previously his guitars don't sound as good, as Collings, for example.

Ok, this part I never recall reading. 
??!!!
Edward

I don't think it has ever been phrased quite that way -- but it's no secret Bob is a big Bill Collings fan. I know I've read things -- in Taylor publications and elsewhere -- where that kind of sentiment could possibly be inferred.

[MB]

I think Ted@LA Guitars nailed it....
The changes in the 800 series in terms of sound are subtle.
I don't see what Taylor is doing as marketing hype.
I believe what we are seeing is a company trying to move forward instead of hanging it's hat on it's previous achievements.
They are trying to make the guitar better. Improve upon their designs and the sound of the instruments.
They are leading the way...and when you lead, you will be criticized. You risk having everyone judge you.
I for one respect that approach.

[michaelw]

....but, like I said, I haven't played the new ones personally...

i'm curious as to what the objective of this thread is
i'd suggest playing one, or some, of the 2014 800 series models &
then forming an opinion based on experience to share with us

[milo_otis]

I've played both the new 814 and 816, and I think they are an improvement over the previous generation -- and I say that as an owner of a previous-generation 814.  Whether or not you feel that the tone improves things or muddies the waters is a question only you can answer for yourself.  As for me, I've given serious thought to cashing in my 814 and getting a new one.  Ultimately, I decided not to, but only because my 814 isn't my primary guitar.

My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype.  When that same player decides that the change represents actual improvement, then Taylor is lauded for not resting on its corporate laurels.  I don't happen to think Taylor ever engages in marketing hype:  I think they believe they are improving their guitars when they make a change.

Oh, man o man, I could get in trouble here with what I'm about to say, and I hope I'm not hijacking this thread.  if I'm not excommunicated, I can move it to a new thread.

Reading DennisG's quote , "My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype," an issue came to mind with which I felt Taylor did engage in a type of marketing hype, that is, when they launched their original ES (post fishman barn-door) and in the years that followed.  They said it sounded natural, but to my ears, and I suppose I'm not alone, it sounded anything but and had that b string quack spoken of so much in many forum threads.   

Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE TAYLOR, I'm on my 5th! And what the ES did do well, that is, control feedback, was amazing.   

Still, it sounded like an electric guitar (to me).  Now my most recent purchase is an end of year 2013 514ce equipped with the ES2 and that sounds way closer to natural, in my view, than the earlier iterations (ES1-a, b and c, although c was far better than the first two, though still slightly unnatural sounding compared to the ES2). 

There was a point along the way where I actually felt Taylor marketed in a way that was deceptive, rather than just hype, and I felt they knew that or they wouldn't have made such drastic attempts at improvements, particularly with the voicing change between ES1-b and c (one less top sensor and better EQing) and of course the subsequent drastic change of completely ditching the ES1 technology for the new ES2. 

Please know I recognize two things: 1) Technology evolves and this was Taylor's first attempt at their own ES, so naturally improvements would be made over time, and 2) that it's all in the ear of the beholder and lots of people were able to EQ/mold theirs to where they really liked the original ES1 iterations.  But, I can't tell a lie, I did feel there was an overhyping and a type of deception (as regards to naturalness of sound) and for a while I felt stung by that fact, though I understand their goal was to sell guitars, and as stated earlier, the feedback control more than made up for the quackiness for guys using it on big stages with bands where the pureness of tone wasn't as necessary with engineers to mix and other instruments and voices to blend with.

The ES2 is a great pickup, though, and I'm looking forward to exploring its dynamic control and other facets. I'm glad they've made it to this version and looking forward to even more improvements.

I certainly don't hold your thoughts against you. I was one of those that happily (at the time) traded my cracked 2001 514ce with Fishman to Taylor for a new (2004) 514ce with 1st gen ES. The customer service guys were more than happy to promote it to me and tell me how much better it was. It was a different sound, but it certainly wasn't as natural as promoted.
I do think that the Fishman sounded great on some guitars (I still have one on my nylon 54ce), the ES1 sounds good with some guitars (like the koa series) and the ES2 truly sounds much more natural and better for other guitars like the rosewoods.

Either way, I can get my sound from any of them with enough tweaking.

[milo_otis]

I think Ted@LA Guitars nailed it....
The changes in the 800 series in terms of sound are subtle.
I don't see what Taylor is doing as marketing hype.
I believe what we are seeing is a company trying to move forward instead of hanging it's hat on it's previous achievements.
They are trying to make the guitar better. Improve upon their designs and the sound of the instruments.
They are leading the way...and when you lead, you will be criticized. You risk having everyone judge you.
I for one respect that approach.

Yes, Ted answered my question very well. That was the type of answer that I was searching for, but must not have asked correctly or directly enough.

[sojiro]

I've found Taylor to be a company of integrity, so it's hard for me to imagine Bob, Kurt, Andy and others sitting around the office saying, "What new gimmicks can we come up that will sell more guitars?" Instead, I think it's more like, "How can we improve the sound of our guitars?" and then WHEN FINISHED those changes are turned over to the Marketing department to pitch it to consumers.

So to answer the original question, IMO there is no marketing hype. Hype implies that there's no substance behind the improvements and the company is trying to dupe buyers, and I don't think that's the case here at all.

So I think we can distill this question down to whether the improvements are significant or not, and leave marketing out of it completely. As I see it, Taylor decided to branch out and perhaps go after a different market: Players who DON'T like the signature Taylor sound. (For the oldies among us, it's sort of like when Coke went after the Pepsi market by coming out with "New Coke," which tasted a lot like Pepsi.)

I admire Taylor for branching out and exploring new sounds, even though I don't personally like the new 800 series changes. To me the rosewood pickguard looks like laminate flooring trying to look like real wood (even though the Taylor pickguard IS real wood); I don't care for the look of striped ebony; I REALLY don't care for the price increase for those improvements; and the tonal changes to me were subtle rather than earth shattering. I know it isn't an exact comparison, but there was a 914 that I much preferred soundwise compared to the new 814 I played.

I have to wonder how much of the tonal differences are due to the new strings. On any guitar there's going to be a very noticeable difference between 80/20s and PBs, not even factoring in messing with custom gauges on the treble strings.

[HAPPYDAN]

...So, in all my traveling to different shops, trying guitars and reading reviews, I have yet to actually try the new 800 series. I'm not quite sure that I really want to though. The more that I read about them and from what I've discovered/ rediscovered about my likes of body shapes, tone wood combos and actual playing application I'm wondering how much is actually marketing vs. actual improvements...

Milo, I think you need to try a new 800 alongside an older version and judge based on that. I have tried every new model alongside it's older counterpart and feel the changes do improve the tone, I would describe the change as the new 800's sound like the older version once they've been played in. Would I run out and buy a new 814ce and sell my older one? No, I would not, and unless you have to have the latest and greatest of everything I wouldn't suggest you should either. Bottom line, the new 800 series is better than the old one, but the change is subtle.

I would would agree with Ted's response. I have tried out the new 814ce, but not the prior version(s). The new one has my vote, and will likely be my next purchase. It combines a sweet blending and balance when strummed, but maintains good articulation when finger-picking. That's really not going to help you compare older vs. new, but I wouldn't classify the information provided as "hype".

[Jersey tuning]

Preface: Taylor guitars are great.  But with the need to please most of the people most of the time, there is a ceiling to what they can achieve regarding improvements.  Lets call it the crossroads between mass production and individual player subjectivity.  While there is some marketing hype, I actually believe the crowing from Andy and Bob is sincere--what they prefer sonically from their instruments has been improved.  Forum members 1942 thru 2117 (for example--nothing personal if I have called you out inadvertantly) might have other ideas, as has been expressed in various forum blogs.

I look forward to the reintroduction of R. Taylor or even more personalized lutherie from Taylor to prove my "ceiling" theory wrong.

For me, I'll find out something in May when I attend a NJ roadshow.

[catan]

The way I think of it is that like it or not, this is the new mainline design of the 800s from here on out and 'changes' will one day become 'what has been for so long'. If Bob wasn't so confident in Andy's revoicing capabilities as well as adding those aesthetic touches (streaked ebony, I'm looking at you), this would be an 800 limited series rather than a full-on sucessor.

[milo_otis]

...Are we being influenced to accept the 'newer is better' marketing..."

I don't know, are you?
Maybe some are and some aren't ...are we taking a poll?  Will the gullible please raise their wallet?

...are they actually an improvement to you or are there only one or two that have truly benefitted from the redesign?...

The answer is clear: clearly in the ear of the beholder.  So if it is or is not an "improvement" to me (since it is being asked), what does my response, either way, have to do with, oh, the cost of tea in China?

Yes, I am being snarky   But only because the question makes no sense to me, personally.  A new "voicing" is clearly a reflection of a builder's direction.  Whether one likes that direction or not is one's own preogative; try it and decide.  But why the new direction must constantly be addressed (in this latest thread, but other threads too, to be sure) as "marketing" instead of simply "another voicing" always smacks of ad copy spin; and words like "real improvement" or "truly" a benefit call to question the company's veracity in their redesign, or at the very least whether guitar players are all simple drones who make decisions like lemmings.

Don't get me wrong: I am neither defending nor deriding Taylor's new voicing.  I'm simply tired (personally ...just me here) of seeing it placed on the defensive in threads that on the one hand are phrased in a genuine desire "to know," yet on the other hand read like a left-handed backhand snuck in when no one was looking.  All the above, in my own opinion, of course, as I simply offer my response to the original question of whether this redesign is a "real improvement" or not.  Sigh...

Edward

Ted understood exactly what I was asking and answered my question about the improvements being subtle very well.

Edward, I didn't intend or set out to irritate anyone.

[Edward]

No biggie, of course, milo ...it is clear to me now that I was simply in desperate need of another cup o joe

Edward

[milo_otis]

....but, like I said, I haven't played the new ones personally...

i'm curious as to what the objective of this thread is
i'd suggest playing one, or some, of the 2014 800 series models &
then forming an opinion based on experience to share with us

I certainly will, if I can find any in an one hour radius. I've been to 10 different Taylor dealers and none of them have the new 800 series.

[michaelw]

I certainly will, if I can find any in an one hour radius. I've been to 10 different Taylor dealers and none of them have the new 800 series.

a call to Taylor customer service would probably help in finding the dealer
closest to your location that has the model you may be wanting to try
http://www.taylorguitars.com/support

[M19]

No biggie, of course, milo ...it is clear to me now that I was simply in desperate need of another cup o joe

Edward

Sounded more like you were under the influence of one too many! 

[jerrytubes]

Well, when I received the latest Wood & Steel, after looking through it I recall thinking to myself "Wow, this is one big, colorful, beautifully photographed.............sales brochure".