Author Topic: Marketing vs. Improvements  (Read 18891 times)

milo_otis

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Marketing vs. Improvements
« on: March 17, 2014, 01:12:58 PM »
I feel like there has been a thread here about this a bit ago, but since they have been around for a bit......

So, in all my traveling to different shops, trying guitars and reading reviews, I have yet to actually try the new 800 series. I'm not quite sure that I really want to though. The more that I read about them and from what I've discovered/ rediscovered about my likes of body shapes, tone wood combos and actual playing application I'm wondering how much is actually marketing vs. actual improvements. For example, the pre 2014 816ce sounded like it was going to swallow itself in overtones and bass, but the new 816ce is supposed to have even more bass response and a richer sound. Is this an improvement on an already overpowering instrument? Or even though the GC 12 frets IMO are a huge home run since are automatically punchier, have a bit more volume, a more focused midrange, a sweet treble and overall darker tone, the new 812 12-fret is supposed to have a sweeter midrange while being punchier and slightly darker sounding...(which kind of sounds like the description that Andy Powers gave of the 522 12-fret, minus the more volume, in a previous W&S.) With more of the "good thing" wouldn't that make  smaller bodied 812 12 fret prone to even more overtone clutter when pushed a bit.

The one that might sound like a real improvement may be the 814.  IMO the rosewood GAs are the body size that could handle/ benefit the most from a bit more midrange and a slightly looser bass. That has been why though I've really liked the 714 and pre 2014 814, I've opted to go either a size up or down in a different wood combo (like a 522ce 12 fret or a K26ce) to get the sound that I was looking for.

Are there that many people that will ONLY or JUST HAVE TO play the spruce/rosewood combos that the 800 series improvements were warranted?

From what I've experienced and read, it seems like a chef taking a wonderfully rich chocolate cake and adding more dark chocolate, chocolate chips, molten chocolate lava and more butter to the creamy frosting giving you too much of a good thing vs. just adding a bit of red pepper to the cake so that it gives you a hint of spice and flair that makes you sit up and say, "Wow! What was that?!"....but, like I said, I haven't played the new ones personally.

So what is everyone else's take? Are we being influenced to accept the 'newer is better' marketing, are they actually an improvement to you or are there only one or two that have truly benefitted from the redesign? Aesthetics not withstanding.......
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 01:41:30 PM by crazymilo12 »

DennisG

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #1 on: March 17, 2014, 01:38:28 PM »
I've played both the new 814 and 816, and I think they are an improvement over the previous generation -- and I say that as an owner of a previous-generation 814.  Whether or not you feel that the tone improves things or muddies the waters is a question only you can answer for yourself.  As for me, I've given serious thought to cashing in my 814 and getting a new one.  Ultimately, I decided not to, but only because my 814 isn't my primary guitar.

My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype.  When that same player decides that the change represents actual improvement, then Taylor is lauded for not resting on its corporate laurels.  I don't happen to think Taylor ever engages in marketing hype:  I think they believe they are improving their guitars when they make a change.
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milo_otis

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #2 on: March 17, 2014, 02:20:27 PM »
I've played both the new 814 and 816, and I think they are an improvement over the previous generation -- and I say that as an owner of a previous-generation 814.  Whether or not you feel that the tone improves things or muddies the waters is a question only you can answer for yourself.  As for me, I've given serious thought to cashing in my 814 and getting a new one.  Ultimately, I decided not to, but only because my 814 isn't my primary guitar.

My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype.  When that same player decides that the change represents actual improvement, then Taylor is lauded for not resting on its corporate laurels.  I don't happen to think Taylor ever engages in marketing hype:  I think they believe they are improving their guitars when they make a change.

Your real world experience mirrors what I'd think of the 814ce as an improvement.

I'm not a fan of rosewoods in the GS or GC bodies anyways, so no matter of bracing or other improvements would change my opinion of those.

joshsimpson79

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #3 on: March 17, 2014, 02:48:56 PM »
I've played both the new 814 and 816, and I think they are an improvement over the previous generation -- and I say that as an owner of a previous-generation 814.  Whether or not you feel that the tone improves things or muddies the waters is a question only you can answer for yourself.  As for me, I've given serious thought to cashing in my 814 and getting a new one.  Ultimately, I decided not to, but only because my 814 isn't my primary guitar.

My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype.  When that same player decides that the change represents actual improvement, then Taylor is lauded for not resting on its corporate laurels.  I don't happen to think Taylor ever engages in marketing hype:  I think they believe they are improving their guitars when they make a change.

From what I've seen so far of the improvements, I think they are improving their guitars, IMO.  However, also IMO, they are also great at marketing hype.  They do very well in that area.
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timfitz63

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #4 on: March 17, 2014, 03:03:50 PM »
When I was home in Pittsburgh a few weeks back, and conducting the independent K26ce vs. 526ce 'study' that was the subject of another thread, I had a chance to take a new 814ce for a spin at Empire Music.  Let's just say I didn't get my socks knocked off by the new 800 Series...  But like you, I'm not big on Rosewood-bodied guitars either.
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milo_otis

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #5 on: March 17, 2014, 03:44:39 PM »
When I was home in Pittsburgh a few weeks back, and conducting the independent K26ce vs. 526ce 'study' that was the subject of another thread, I had a chance to take a new 814ce for a spin at Empire Music.  Let's just say I didn't get my socks knocked off by the new 800 Series...  But like you, I'm not big on Rosewood-bodied guitars either.

Thank you for that independent study BTW, Tim!

milo_otis

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #6 on: March 17, 2014, 03:55:42 PM »
I remember reading that somewhere. Along those lines, I already think that Taylors in general sound great and better than most anything else that I've played compared to other makers, but that's why I play them. The only other guitars that blew me away were David Webber's guitars, especially for finger style jazz.

If you could think of any make any tonal or volume adjustment for a specific Taylor, which guitar and what would it be?
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 04:55:48 PM by UTGF-Team »

Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #7 on: March 17, 2014, 04:30:16 PM »
...So, in all my traveling to different shops, trying guitars and reading reviews, I have yet to actually try the new 800 series. I'm not quite sure that I really want to though. The more that I read about them and from what I've discovered/ rediscovered about my likes of body shapes, tone wood combos and actual playing application I'm wondering how much is actually marketing vs. actual improvements...

Milo, I think you need to try a new 800 alongside an older version and judge based on that. I have tried every new model alongside it's older counterpart and feel the changes do improve the tone, I would describe the change as the new 800's sound like the older version once they've been played in. Would I run out and buy a new 814ce and sell my older one? No, I would not, and unless you have to have the latest and greatest of everything I wouldn't suggest you should either. Bottom line, the new 800 series is better than the old one, but the change is subtle.

timfitz63

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #8 on: March 17, 2014, 04:41:40 PM »
When I was home in Pittsburgh a few weeks back, and conducting the independent K26ce vs. 526ce 'study' that was the subject of another thread, I had a chance to take a new 814ce for a spin at Empire Music.  Let's just say I didn't get my socks knocked off by the new 800 Series...  But like you, I'm not big on Rosewood-bodied guitars either.

Thank you for that independent study BTW, Tim!

My pleasure!  Hope it helped!  It certainly didn't do me any harm to play through some guitars...!  ;)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
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milo_otis

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #9 on: March 17, 2014, 05:45:24 PM »
I'll have to check some Collings out within the next week or two before I commit fully to buying a new K26ce.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2014, 04:56:13 PM by UTGF-Team »

milo_otis

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #10 on: March 17, 2014, 05:46:46 PM »
...So, in all my traveling to different shops, trying guitars and reading reviews, I have yet to actually try the new 800 series. I'm not quite sure that I really want to though. The more that I read about them and from what I've discovered/ rediscovered about my likes of body shapes, tone wood combos and actual playing application I'm wondering how much is actually marketing vs. actual improvements...

Milo, I think you need to try a new 800 alongside an older version and judge based on that. I have tried every new model alongside it's older counterpart and feel the changes do improve the tone, I would describe the change as the new 800's sound like the older version once they've been played in. Would I run out and buy a new 814ce and sell my older one? No, I would not, and unless you have to have the latest and greatest of everything I wouldn't suggest you should either. Bottom line, the new 800 series is better than the old one, but the change is subtle.

Thank you for that inside perspective!

azslacker

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #11 on: March 17, 2014, 06:56:54 PM »
I've never liked rosewood much, but have played all the new 800's. Since I'm mostly a GC and smaller body player, I spent several quality minutes with the 812ce. I'll say, it sure made me smile. Feels very light and nimble. Better balance across the tonal range than I expected, and more than enough mid-range to satisfy me. I have a 312ce which should be identical size wise, but the 812 sure felt different. A couple of ounces is noticable. I'm not sold yet on the ES2 system, but I do like the new 800's. Funky pick guard and all. I guess what I like the most is how great they sound way up in 12th. fret land.
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guitarsrsoawesome

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #12 on: March 17, 2014, 07:48:06 PM »
I've played both the new 814 and 816, and I think they are an improvement over the previous generation -- and I say that as an owner of a previous-generation 814.  Whether or not you feel that the tone improves things or muddies the waters is a question only you can answer for yourself.  As for me, I've given serious thought to cashing in my 814 and getting a new one.  Ultimately, I decided not to, but only because my 814 isn't my primary guitar.

My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype.  When that same player decides that the change represents actual improvement, then Taylor is lauded for not resting on its corporate laurels.  I don't happen to think Taylor ever engages in marketing hype:  I think they believe they are improving their guitars when they make a change.

Oh, man o man, I could get in trouble here with what I'm about to say, and I hope I'm not hijacking this thread.  if I'm not excommunicated, I can move it to a new thread.

Reading DennisG's quote , "My observation is that when Taylor makes a change that a player doesn't like, it's often perceived as marketing hype," an issue came to mind with which I felt Taylor did engage in a type of marketing hype, that is, when they launched their original ES (post fishman barn-door) and in the years that followed.  They said it sounded natural, but to my ears, and I suppose I'm not alone, it sounded anything but and had that b string quack spoken of so much in many forum threads.   

Please don't get me wrong, I LOVE TAYLOR, I'm on my 5th! :) And what the ES did do well, that is, control feedback, was amazing.   

Still, it sounded like an electric guitar (to me).  Now my most recent purchase is an end of year 2013 514ce equipped with the ES2 and that sounds way closer to natural, in my view, than the earlier iterations (ES1-a, b and c, although c was far better than the first two, though still slightly unnatural sounding compared to the ES2). 

There was a point along the way where I actually felt Taylor marketed in a way that was deceptive, rather than just hype, and I felt they knew that or they wouldn't have made such drastic attempts at improvements, particularly with the voicing change between ES1-b and c (one less top sensor and better EQing) and of course the subsequent drastic change of completely ditching the ES1 technology for the new ES2. 

Please know I recognize two things: 1) Technology evolves and this was Taylor's first attempt at their own ES, so naturally improvements would be made over time, and 2) that it's all in the ear of the beholder and lots of people were able to EQ/mold theirs to where they really liked the original ES1 iterations.  But, I can't tell a lie, I did feel there was an overhyping and a type of deception (as regards to naturalness of sound) and for a while I felt stung by that fact, though I understand their goal was to sell guitars, and as stated earlier, the feedback control more than made up for the quackiness for guys using it on big stages with bands where the pureness of tone wasn't as necessary with engineers to mix and other instruments and voices to blend with.

The ES2 is a great pickup, though, and I'm looking forward to exploring its dynamic control and other facets. I'm glad they've made it to this version and looking forward to even more improvements.
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Edward

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2014, 09:41:43 PM »
Bob Taylor has himself mentioned that he was only focusing on playability and consistency previously. Now that he believes those areas are sorted, he says now Taylor can finally focus on tone.

I recall reading this, myself.  It was in context to Andy Powers as the new tonal guru as Bob praised his knowledge of building and guitar history, his playing talent, and his keen ear and understaning of what constitues a guitar's particular voice.

Quote
...He admits that previously his guitars don't sound as good, as Collings, for example.

Ok, this part I never recall reading. 
??!!!
Edward

Edward

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Re: Marketing vs. Improvements
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2014, 10:07:09 PM »
...Are we being influenced to accept the 'newer is better' marketing..."

I don't know, are you?
Maybe some are and some aren't ...are we taking a poll?  Will the gullible please raise their wallet?

Quote
...are they actually an improvement to you or are there only one or two that have truly benefitted from the redesign?...
The answer is clear: clearly in the ear of the beholder.  So if it is or is not an "improvement" to me (since it is being asked), what does my response, either way, have to do with, oh, the cost of tea in China?

Yes, I am being snarky :)  But only because the question makes no sense to me, personally.  A new "voicing" is clearly a reflection of a builder's direction.  Whether one likes that direction or not is one's own preogative; try it and decide.  But why the new direction must constantly be addressed (in this latest thread, but other threads too, to be sure) as "marketing" instead of simply "another voicing" always smacks of ad copy spin; and words like "real improvement" or "truly" a benefit call to question the company's veracity in their redesign, or at the very least whether guitar players are all simple drones who make decisions like lemmings.

Don't get me wrong: I am neither defending nor deriding Taylor's new voicing.  I'm simply tired (personally ...just me here) of seeing it placed on the defensive in threads that on the one hand are phrased in a genuine desire "to know," yet on the other hand read like a left-handed backhand snuck in when no one was looking.  All the above, in my own opinion, of course, as I simply offer my response to the original question of whether this redesign is a "real improvement" or not.  Sigh...

Edward
« Last Edit: March 17, 2014, 10:12:24 PM by Edward »