Engelmann vs sitka top

[madx2]

Hello All,
How do the two tops compare sonically? Is there a big difference in sound?
Thanks in advance

[Drock2k1]

Having owned both I think that the engelman has a bit of a softer or mellowed sound compared to sitka. I have been told engelmann has a lower ceiling but i have never reached it. Sitka has a slightly snappier or sharper attack. They both have their strong suits.

[madx2]

What model guitar were these on?  Same tonewood and body style?

[stepchildusmc]

on my GS minis, the spruce has a lot more clarity though it lacks a bit in mids and bass compared to the Engelmann. the engelmann BOOMS ! compared to the sitka. it does have a more mohogany-like mellowness.

[Edward]

Engelmann gets you more mid-to-upper-mids voice, while attenuating the top end.  I like to think of engel as leaning toward the mids-rich warmth of cedar and having a far less "zingy" treble of sitka. 

FWIW, for yeeeaaaarrrs I have heard and read about this so-called "ceiling" of engelmann (and cedar) ...so much so I think I'm ready to convulse.  I have owned, played often, and played out engel and cedar, rock and contemp music, with zero issues, complaints, or shortcomings.  Frankly I wish this myth of would just die...

As far is "big" difference"?  I'd say definitely noticible, but not monumentally different; but enough to make me choose one or the other.  Engelmann is still sitka so it's sonically in that family, albeit with leanings toward the cedar tone. 

All IMHO and experience, anywho

Edward

[michaelw]

What model guitar were these on?  Same tonewood and body style?

which body shape & back & sides woods are you looking for input on

[jerrytubes]

Engelmann is still Sitka.....

Did you mean "Engelman is still spruce....."?

[madx2]

What model guitar were these on?  Same tonewood and body style?

which body shape & back & sides woods are you looking for input on

If you had two identical guitars made by the same maker (same body shape, same tonewoods, same strings, etc) the only difference was the top, would you be able to hear a difference?

 I own a '98 310.  I played a 2013 710 (engelmann top) and I'm trying to figure out how much sound difference is attributable to the top, not just the rosewood sides and bracing.  I played a 812 (sitka top) and it didn't sonically speak to me.  Being a different shape makes it not a fair comparison to the 710.

[michaelw]

If you had two identical guitars made by the same maker (same body shape, same tonewoods, same strings, etc) the only difference was the top, would you be able to hear a difference?

 I own a '98 310.  I played a 2013 710 (engelmann top) and I'm trying to figure out how much sound difference is attributable to the top, not just the rosewood sides and bracing.  I played a 812 (sitka top) and it didn't sonically speak to me.  Being a different shape makes it not a fair comparison to the 710.

i believe that in some cases one can &, other than variances between guitars & playing environment, provided the
guitars are of the same age with the same strings & same set up, if one is not made aware of the fact, or does not
notice right away, that the top woods are different, then the difference in tone could be more attributable to the top

i had a 02 w14ce sitka top & i ran across another & when i played the second one i knew right off that i didn't care for it -
it lacked a little "snap 'n sparkle" & to my ear, which was not particularly discerning 12 years ago but i still knew what i liked

the second w14ce had an engelmann top & that particular example seemed a bit "dull 'n flabby" -
engelmann/koa vs sitka/koa produced the same results back then, with the sitka top being the "winner"

i played an engelmann top 712ce that i much preferred over a 812ce & even a 914ce -
the warmth, maturity & dynamic response on that 712 was really exceptional

i can't comment on an engelmann top 710 specifically, but i had an early 90s 910 & compared to a sitka top 810 of the
same age, i preferred the 810 as it seemed "bolder" & when i dug into it hard, it maintained it's clarity & definition -
if you can find a 98-early 99 510 (the standard top was engelmann back then), the body shape, nut width & bracing pattern
are identical to your 310, with the later 99 & 00 models having a NT neck & granted there is some difference between sapele &
mahogany, provided your 310 is made of sapele (it may not be), that could give you an idea of what engelmann can deliver

some of the rectified, compression grain "stripey" engelmann that is "popping up" here & there is really nice, imho -
i've played a 2013 516ce with this kind of top & it's smoother than sitka, but when the spurs are put to it, it stays clear

the euro spruce, adi CV quilted sapele 12 fall LTDs, could  be considered the 300 series to the nth degree
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/DNce-FLTD
the examples i've played were pretty sweet, but i keep gravitating back towards a certain 316ce of the same year model

[timfitz63]

Engelmann gets you more mid-to-upper-mids voice, while attenuating the top end.  I like to think of engel as leaning toward the mids-rich warmth of cedar and having a far less "zingy" treble of sitka. 

FWIW, for yeeeaaaarrrs I have heard and read about this so-called "ceiling" of engelmann (and cedar) ...so much so I think I'm ready to convulse.  I have owned, played often, and played out engel and cedar, rock and contemp music, with zero issues, complaints, or shortcomings.  Frankly I wish this myth of would just die...

My relatively limited experience with this topic supports what Edward is saying.  I've got a 510ce that came standard with an Engelmann Spruce top, and it seems 'warmer' than the Sitka Spruce tops I have on most of my other guitars.  I don't think I'd say there's a huge difference in the two Spruces, but there is a difference...  Which I'd choose largely depends on what I'm trying to get out of it.  I probably have a slight personal preference for Sitka, just because it's a bit brighter, but enjoy the sound of Engelmann on my 510ce.

I've also not encountered any issues driving it when strumming it hard; in fact, I was playing my 510ce last night, and started really driving it hard while playing; it just seemed to take it in stride...  In fact, I thought it sounded better the harder I strummed...

[Edward]

Engelmann is still Sitka.....

Did you mean "Engelman is still spruce....."?

Sitka, Engelmann, and "Euro" spruce are all spruce ...I'll let someone smarter than I am who knows their genus-species offer the specifics

FWIW, Engel is getting harder to come by, and Taylor has all but stopped using it in the last few years I've noticed.  They've instead gone to this so-called "euro spruce," which is a really general term.  Those "in the know" --of whom I am not-- note sonic differences between Carpathian, Italian, et.al. spruce subgroups, and guess what: they're all from europe! 

Perhaps someone here knows exactly what spruce variety Taylor uses in their "euro spruce" guits, as I'd like to know.  My 616 SpringLtd is macassar/euro spruce so I am personally curious which variety the factory has acquired for this and their 500Ltds.

Edward

[Strumming Fool]

Sitka, Engelmann, and "Euro" spruce are all spruce ...I'll let someone smarter than I am who knows their genus-species offer the specifics

FWIW, Engel is getting harder to come by, and Taylor has all but stopped using it in the last few years I've noticed.  They've instead gone to this so-called "euro spruce," which is a really general term.  Those "in the know" --of whom I am not-- note sonic differences between Carpathian, Italian, et.al. spruce subgroups, and guess what: they're all from europe! 

Perhaps someone here knows exactly what spruce variety Taylor uses in their "euro spruce" guits, as I'd like to know.  My 616 SpringLtd is macassar/euro spruce so I am personally curious which variety the factory has acquired for this and their 500Ltds.

Edward

I'm not sure of the source- could be any of the above in addition to Swiss Alpine or German...I had always thought that Engelmann was primarily sourced form North America, but I'm not certain....

[davwir]

FWIW, Engel is getting harder to come by, and Taylor has all but stopped using it in the last few years I've noticed

This is true, it has been out of supply for a while, and thus off any production models..
However, a friend down there in El Cajon told me they just recently got a good supply of Englemann again, so I assume it would likely be back on the menu, at least for a BTO if someone wanted it.

Englemann is a great sounding top wood in my opinion..

[Edward]

Yes, SF, that's right: engelmann spruce is from North America, at least everytime I've heard/read about its sourcing in the past.  And clearly that Holden GSm is sourcing the engelmann directly from the immediate region (Pacific NW).  But "euro" spruce's origin has not always been clear ...that I've seen anyway, unless marked (like "Carpathian" as I've seen Taylor actually put into print).  As for the 2013 600 and 500 Limiteds, it's really just an intellectual curiousity for me, but yeah, I'd like to know how Taylor defines that "European Spruce."

Hey Dave,
Good to know!  I am glad they've got some back in their hands as I wholeheartedly agree that engel is a mighty-sweet sounding topwood.

Edward

[Gutch]

Love me some Engelmann!  I have it on a small and large body guitar, and I love the complexity it adds to the tone.  Not quite as bright as Sitka, it takes a flatpick just fine and is simply dreamy when playing fingerstyle.  LOVE IT!!!