Author Topic: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516  (Read 5418 times)

Drock2k1

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So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« on: September 20, 2013, 10:59:24 PM »
Looks like these area thing of the past. Gone off of the newe price lists and no more links on Taylor's site. They have been replaced by 522, 524, and 526. This combined with no more Engellmann has pretty much shelved my modify a model order. Bummer.

jalbert

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #1 on: September 20, 2013, 11:14:07 PM »
I'm a little surprised that the cedar-topped 514(c)(e) is not offered as standard...
James

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PureTone

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2013, 01:05:34 AM »
Looks like these area thing of the past. Gone off of the newe price lists and no more links on Taylor's site. They have been replaced by 522, 524, and 526. This combined with no more Engellmann has pretty much shelved my modify a model order. Bummer.
Links for the CE models are on the website as of this post. The guitars in the pictures don't have the Ivoroid rosette, binding, Ebony headstock, Century fretboard inlays and chrome tuners though, but there is no red lettering stating 'This model has been discontinued'.
510CE
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/510ce
512CE
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/512ce
514CE
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/514ce
516CE
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/516ce

Unless the Standard Model Options have changed, one should be able to delete the cutaway and electronics on any of the 51XCEs and specify a Sitka or Cedar (except on the Grand Orchestra) top on the 52X models. Engelmann seems to have disappeared completely from any of the Standard models (the 700s were the last Mohicans) and from the Standard Model Options list, so it looks like BTO only for this one. That is a pity.
« Last Edit: September 22, 2013, 02:38:54 PM by PureTone »

Drock2k1

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2013, 09:01:29 AM »
I had to do a site search to find them. They aren't listed under series or on the new price list, which led to my concern? I wonder if its because they are removing all remnants of Engelmann.

PureTone

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #4 on: September 21, 2013, 12:36:28 PM »
I had to do a site search to find them. They aren't listed under series or on the new price list, which led to my concern? I wonder if its because they are removing all remnants of Engelmann.
I see what you mean. I just did a seach by Series and came up with nothing. The Cedar top 512 and 514CE-N models are still there and the specs are consistent with the 52X models (save for the standard top), but the pictures still show the 'old appointments'.

When the revamped 51XCEs are on the website, I would expect the X10-8 to be there, with Sitka tops on the 0, 6 & 8 and Cedar tops on the 2 and 4. It would be quite a change if the 500 Series no longer had standard non-hardwood top models.

I thought that the Mahogany top 500s were meant to be additional models in the Series, like the 300s, but that may not be the case.
Along with the change in internet marketing 'strategy', I see something else that, to me, really 'cheapens' the brand.

Seconds on eBay.
110
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110-DN100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054222379?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7a42b
110E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110e-DNE-100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286510466?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e3bf82
110CE
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110CE-DN-CE-100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054208091?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe76c5b
114
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114-GA-100-Sapele-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Guitar-/261286532450?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e41562
114E SB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114-E-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-Sunburst-/231054234872?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7d4f8
114CE SB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114ce-Sapele-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-Sunburst-/231054236240?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7da50
210
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-210-DN-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054230418?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7c392
210E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-210e-DN-E-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054238569?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7e369
214
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214-GA-200-Rosewood-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054223757?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7a98d
214E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214e-GA-E-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054232036?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7c9e4
214CE
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214CE-GA-CE-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286512397?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e3c70d
214CE BLK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214CEBK-Black-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286540169?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e43389
Unless the guitars have such glaring flaws or defects that they would not be sold through other channels (Chain store 'Restocks' or Friends and Family), it looks Taylor is trying to distance themselves as far as possible from these. Not unlike a new car dealer that has a satellite wholesale lot way across town, far away from the main location.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2013, 08:49:53 PM by PureTone »

Edward

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #5 on: September 21, 2013, 12:51:34 PM »
I had to do a site search to find them. They aren't listed under series or on the new price list, which led to my concern? I wonder if its because they are removing all remnants of Engelmann.
I see what you mean. I just a seach by Series and came up with nothing. The Cedar top 512 and 514CE-N models are still there and the specs are consistent with the 52X models (save for the standard top), but the pictures still show the 'old appointments'.

When the revamped 51XCEs are on the website, I would expect the X10-8 to be there, with Sitka tops on the 0, 6 & 8 and Cedar tops on the 2 and 4. It would be quite a change if the 500 Series no longer had standard non-hardwood top models.

I thought that the Mahogany top 500s were meant to be additional models in the Series, like the 300s, but that may not be the case.
Along with the change in internet marketing 'strategy', I see something else that, to me, really 'cheapens' the brand.

Seconds on eBay.
110
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110-DN100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054222379?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7a42b
110E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110e-DNE-100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286510466?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e3bf82
110CE
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-110CE-DN-CE-100-Sapele-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054208091?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe76c5b
114
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114-GA-100-Sapele-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Guitar-/261286532450?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e41562
114E SB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114-E-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-Sunburst-/231054234872?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7d4f8
114CE SB
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-114ce-Sapele-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-Sunburst-/231054236240?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7da50
210
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-210-DN-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054230418?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7c392
210E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-210e-DN-E-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Dreadnought-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054238569?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7e369
214
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214-GA-200-Rosewood-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Guitar-/231054223757?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7a98d
214E
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214e-GA-E-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/231054232036?pt=Guitar&hash=item35cbe7c9e4
214CE
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214CE-GA-CE-200-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286512397?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e3c70d
214CE BLK
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Taylor-214CEBK-Black-Rosewood-Spruce-Grand-Auditorium-Acoustic-Electric-Guitar-/261286540169?pt=Guitar&hash=item3cd5e43389
Unless the guitars have such glaring flaws or defects that they would not be sold through other channels (Chain store 'Restocks' or Friends and Family), it looks Taylor is trying to distance themselves as far as possible from these. Not unlike a new car dealer that has a satellite wholesale lot way across town, far away from the main location.

Ditto on all counts ...particularly that pic!  Oh no, yikes!

Edward

El Diablo

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #6 on: September 22, 2013, 09:25:59 AM »
I don't see what the problem is.

These guitars are clearly not being sold as new. I would imagine that the also don't enjoy a lifetime warranty. Is it because Taylor is selling these to dealers (has that been confirmed?) because, if so, that's really, really way to minor to get upset about.

There's nothing here that "cheapens the brand".

PureTone

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #7 on: September 22, 2013, 01:06:14 PM »
I don't see what the problem is.

These guitars are clearly not being sold as new. I would imagine that the also don't enjoy a lifetime warranty. Is it because Taylor is selling these to dealers (has that been confirmed?) because, if so, that's really, really way to minor to get upset about.

There's nothing here that "cheapens the brand".
If what is stated here is true, I would have to disagree. Directly from the 'dealer's' site.
'This is a refurbished guitar. These guitars are sent directly from the manufacturer to the authorized refurbishing center where they are fully inspected and cleared by a certified refurbisher. These guitars are in like new mint condition. Some may have a few strum marks or box scuffs that would easily buff out, but most guitars are 100% flaw free. Any visible or known flaws are outlined in the description and include up close pictures of the specific flaw. All of our guitars come with a standard factory setup, but may require a small amount of fine tuning to fit the players personal taste. In order to prevent false warranty claims, the back of the headstock is lightly stamped "used" or "2nd" and the original serial number has been replaced with a new one by the authorized refurbisher. These guitars are the next best thing to buying new!'

Really ? If the guitars are truly in 'like new mint condition', then why would there be a need to sell them as a 'Second' without any warranty ? If Taylor is sending these guitars out because they do not meet their standards and is not willing to stand behind them by allowing a 'refurbishing company' (what kind of crap is that?) to stamped 'USED' on them and put another Serial # on it, I'd say the overall effect is  'cheapening' the brand. If Taylor is not aware of this and allowing it to happen, then the reseller is not being truthful about the process of how the guitars are obtained and what it done before they are shipped out. Sure, other builders have done it, but for the most part it has been on guitars that are made overseas by the tanker container full that end up selling for a fraction of these.

Nowhere does it state the dealer is authorized to sell the lines of products they have, nor do that they state they are 'refurbished center reseller' upfront.
http://www.rayhillaudio.com/products/taylor
http://www.rayhillaudio.com/aboutus/
If this is what Taylor considers change to their internet dealer 'strategy', I'd say there's a weakness somewhere else. If these are 'overstock' units that could not be sold at Friends and Family or through dealers, I would think a Chain store would be able to take care of selling them, provided they were truly in 'like new mint condition'.

I found a video for the 114CE Sunburst and it looks like it was an export model.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a2dRioVC_kU
I checked the price tag and converted the amount to USD, which is MAP for what a new 314 goes for.

Perhaps the distributor was not satisfied with the build quality of the guitars for one reason or another and they were 're-imported' back into the US? If that is the case, I don't think that a rather insignificant discount (less than a tenth) would make up for a 'USED' stamp and reserialized label. I would put it on par with a vehicle that has a 'salvage rebuild' title on it, as opposed a 'certified pre owned' that the manufacturer is still willing to stand behind and have extended the warranty as proof.

The customer that ends up buying a guitar like this ends up getting the short end of the stick (a 'marked' guitar with no warranty). A well maintained previous owned guitar could be had for significantly less $ and very likely locally. A discount as small as this could easily be negotiated at a local shop and the guitar would be new with a warranty, unless the shop is in danger of losing their dealer status by selling a guitar below MAP.

El Diablo

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #8 on: September 22, 2013, 01:09:30 PM »
Disagree all you want, but it's clear these are not being sold with the regular Taylor warranty. Therefore, they are not competing with new guitars.

I'm not saying that you don't think it cheapens the bran. I'm just saying you're wrong. It doesn't.

Drock2k1

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #9 on: September 22, 2013, 01:41:53 PM »

I'm not saying that you don't think it cheapens the bran. I'm just saying you're wrong. It doesn't.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure your stating your opinion as fact and honestly, this is starting to get a little off topic.

PureTone

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #10 on: September 22, 2013, 02:37:24 PM »

I'm not saying that you don't think it cheapens the bran. I'm just saying you're wrong. It doesn't.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure your stating your opinion as fact and honestly, this is starting to get a little off topic.
I apologize, Drock, for hijacking your thread. It began as a expressing a disappointment in the direction that a Series had headed (I still think Engelmann should be offered as a Standard Model Option, but I guess according to others I'm 'wrong'.) and it spiraled away from that. I'll start a new thread. Sorry about the misdirection this topic has taken.

El Diablo

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #11 on: September 22, 2013, 02:43:47 PM »

I'm not saying that you don't think it cheapens the bran. I'm just saying you're wrong. It doesn't.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure your stating your opinion as fact and honestly, this is starting to get a little off topic.

But I'm not stating my opinion at all. I am stating fact.

The guitars are not sold with a Taylor limited lifetime warranty. That's not my opinion. That is a verifiable fact.

PureTone

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #12 on: September 22, 2013, 03:27:41 PM »

Drock2k1

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Re: So bummed. Goodbye 512, 514, 516
« Reply #13 on: September 22, 2013, 05:49:38 PM »

I'm not saying that you don't think it cheapens the bran. I'm just saying you're wrong. It doesn't.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure your stating your opinion as fact and honestly, this is starting to get a little off topic.

But I'm not stating my opinion at all. I am stating fact.

The guitars are not sold with a Taylor limited lifetime warranty. That's not my opinion. That is a verifiable fact.

That's not what I referenced, you stated that this doesn't cheapen the brand, which is opinion.

Either way, there is a thread for this now. No worries PureTone.