Author Topic: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain  (Read 28793 times)

MR XXXXX

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 11:15:08 AM »
All those awesome LTD's in your sig... They for sale now? 

Fire

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 11:34:09 AM »
I think your strong reaction without knowing all sides is sort of sad/funny.  Business is a tricky thing.... Who really knows what was going on?  Why do so many assume that "Taylor has lost it way?"  or has turned evil somehow by not dealing with a certain dealer?  What if a dealer totally took care of customers, sold them guitars at great prices but broke a manufacturers policies?  Or didn't pay their bills?  NOT implying GR did any of those things.... BUT how do we know they didn't?  Or maybe you are just a friend of the store and on here to vent for them...  It all seems so reactionary...  We also will likely never know, as a company as big as Taylor probably will never let out details on their business dealings....


Best post in this thread... IMHO.
2011 Taylor FLTD GA Koa 12-Fret
2015 Taylor T5z Pro
2015 Martin 000-15m

ewalling

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 12:49:50 PM »
We also will likely never know, as a company as big as Taylor probably will never let out details on their business dealings....

I suppose one problem for Taylor, if they want to conceal their business dealings, is that in this new age of instant communication it is not only individuals, but also businesses that have lost some of the privacy they once enjoyed. I've bought three Taylors from Jim and conversed with people I've never met physically on the other side of this huge country who've bought from him. Jim and GR are very well known and respected in the world of Taylor guitars. I imagine that satisfied customers far and wide have had their feathers ruffled by this move, and it might be in Taylor's interests to offer some word of explanation. 

PureTone

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 01:23:26 PM »
I wonder if the super retailers (online) have anything to do with this?


So much for enforcement of MAP.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/deal-center?N=500001&nN=true&tandt_rdir=1#N=500001+100802+700007+202088&Nao=0&recsPerPage=20&v=g&Ns=pLH&profileCountryCode=US&profileCurrencyCode=USD&profileCountryCode=US&profileCurrencyCode=USD


Looks like all of those guitars are old models no longer be made....
Just because they are 2010 models doesn't mean MAP can be ignored. There are plenty of dealers out there with NOS guitars (non 2013 models) that are not advertising them at Black Friday level discounts and those that are have been released from their dealer contracts.

The 514CE, 614CE, 710CE and T-5C are currently being made.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/514ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/614ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/710ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/electric/t5/custom/t5-c
Check your facts before posting something that makes you look like you know nothing about it.

darylcrisp

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #34 on: July 20, 2013, 02:12:05 PM »
had this whole situation on my mind this morning.
i'm a huge taylor fan, of the guitars and of the neat stories presented by this company. like most of us, I don't have a clue of whats going in deep inside the company or the music industry-I only know what I see in print on the forums or in the company publications.

I guess I come from a time period where I love little shops and small owned business. I love going into a 30 year old establishment that's been family owned, and browse the goods. I really don't like big and brand new. its just not about the instrument or lets say the motorcycle, its the whole aura of that particular atmosphere.

many decades ago, I was highly involved with air cooled, BMW twin cylinder motorcycles(singles too!). I was a certified BMW motorcycle mechanic. those bikes (70's/80's) were solid and simple. an owner could reasonably keep one on the road all over the world, with basic mechanical knowledge-not anymore of course. those old horses were not up to par with modern regulations and were replaced with mucho modern electronic run machines-in the process the soul of that twin air cooled engine was extinguished.

I remember when BMW had started developing and upgrading to the more modern motorcycle-there started a change in the dealers that sold those bikes. I heard a lot of rumors about certain types of requirements(regarding how the shop building looked, how large it was, how the floor plan had to be laid out) what happened, rather quickly, was the loss of a lot-if not all small mom and pop dealerships in the USA. I remember all those cool old shops with decades of history just "removed". no longer could you go to clyde ree's in Tn, or the old shops in boston or out in the Midwest. those were the coolest places, the owners were true riders who had all traversed across the USA and Europe-many stories told while leaning on old worn countertops.
the new design of the "stores"(no longer "shops" in my mind) were very modern, very stylistic, something you'd see in Vogue or GQ. A few of us kinda just slid off the beaten path(and the Airheads were formed).

I haven't been in one of those big stores other than Bobs BMW in Maryland(I knew Bob when he started out selling used parts in the basement of his home). I look at the new BMW bikes, and i'm sure they are great riding machines, but I don't see that old soul of the propeller symbol still in the breed. they blend in just like every other 2 wheeled vehicle I see. no longer considered a "steel horse" IMO, but rather just formed plastic, electronics, and other synthetic elements(and yep, the oil too). better? worse? I don't truly know. I do know I like simple. I like knowing that person behind that counter like a next door neighbor and just not a sales clerk with a nametag-or phone extension number.

all my rambling nets nothing more than my thoughts. Its almost as if I am witnessing the same movement take place with this beloved guitar brand, that I witnessed decades ago with a legendary motorcycle breed.

my last thought is this cannot be about Jim selling at undercut prices. I can name off at least 5 shops that I know that gave/give the same price and some lower. we all knew to expect about a 40% price discount over the listed MAP.
Jim offered the buy-back program which was his own process. I know Jim and Jon are old friends-I may have this wrong, but I think Jon actually got Jim going and involved with Taylors and selling guitars in the first place.

still find this a perplexing, sad happening. I really hope what I witnessed happen with motorcycles is not going to happen to Taylor guitars.

d
« Last Edit: July 20, 2013, 02:20:40 PM by darylcrisp »

MR XXXXX

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #35 on: July 20, 2013, 02:44:18 PM »
I wonder if the super retailers (online) have anything to do with this?


So much for enforcement of MAP.
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/deal-center?N=500001&nN=true&tandt_rdir=1#N=500001+100802+700007+202088&Nao=0&recsPerPage=20&v=g&Ns=pLH&profileCountryCode=US&profileCurrencyCode=USD&profileCountryCode=US&profileCurrencyCode=USD


Looks like all of those guitars are old models no longer be made....
Just because they are 2010 models doesn't mean MAP can be ignored. There are plenty of dealers out there with NOS guitars (non 2013 models) that are not advertising them at Black Friday level discounts and those that are have been released from their dealer contracts.

The 514CE, 614CE, 710CE and T-5C are currently being made.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/514ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/614ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/710ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/electric/t5/custom/t5-c
Check your facts before posting something that makes you look like you know nothing about it.


I think you are wrong, but that's cool.  I think if you look closely, every single one of those guitars has had a spec change of some sort, and I am quite sure one of the largest internet retailers knows the rules and follows them.  They are almost never the problem in the retail world.  BUT HEY MAN, LEMME GO CHECK MY FACTS.

MR XXXXX

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #36 on: July 20, 2013, 02:45:50 PM »
That I know NOTHING about... (never know who is an authorized Taylor dealer, or a close friend of one on the internet).  Maybe you should  read your own advice smart guy.

PureTone

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #37 on: July 20, 2013, 02:54:34 PM »
So far, 3 of the best performing dealers have been released.
http://www.taylorguitars.com/blog/guitars-more/top-taylor-dealer-awards-announced-namm
I've heard of other manufacturers restructuring their brands and dealer network (see page 11 'At year end 2005 ...'), the difference being that the company realized that certain practices could not be sustained if they were to remain profitable.
http://www.banking.senate.gov/public/_files/Brfg12308AutoPRESENTATIONOFFORDMOTORCOMPANY122_SenateFinal_.pdf
The automotive industry has changed, with carburetors all but being extinct in the mid to late 80's, as well as significant changes to emissions control systems (OBD-II in 96) and continued safety and fuel economy (CAFE) standards. The sign of the times is a company is required to keep and if they're not on the cutting edge of technology, they run the risk of getting left behind. One model year can make a world of difference and maintaining that product so it continues to be successful in the long term is a calculated risk, where the wrong decision could be very easily  'make-or-break'.

Dealer franchises have been pulled, not for lack of profitability of singular locations but for other 'unknown' factors. Information regarding such instances lie solely with the company and the dealer involved and neither should feel the need to offer any further details or explanation because the general public does not have a right to know. Ask for the Colonel's recipe for the blend of 11 herbs and spices and see how far that gets you.

It is difficult to see any type of pattern involved with the dealers that are no longer associated with Taylor, whether they have multiple locations or are  full-range stores that carry more than guitars and guitar accessories.

Looking at the list of top dealers, it difficult to see what criteria needs to be met to attain such recognition, such as inventory.

Cream City Music. 5 new guitars, 3 of them solid top models.
http://www.creamcitymusic.com/cSearch.aspx?Search=taylor&submit=Go&CategoryID=0&ManufacturerID=0&SectionID=0&PriceRange=0&SortBy=6&PageSize=9&AndOr=AND&DisplayMode=List

DennisG

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #38 on: July 20, 2013, 02:56:01 PM »
and should any of our customers decide they are ready to step up, we hope they will think of us.

I'm confused by this statement.  Step up to what?  From what?
-------------------------------------
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PureTone

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #39 on: July 20, 2013, 03:10:40 PM »
I think you are wrong, but that's cool.  I think if you look closely, every single one of those guitars has had a spec change of some sort, and I am quite sure one of the largest internet retailers knows the rules and follows them.  They are almost never the problem in the retail world.  BUT HEY MAN, LEMME GO CHECK MY FACTS.
Spec changes have nothing to do with it. 2010 model guitars, still adhering to MAP.
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/acoustics/taylor/500.htm
That I know NOTHING about... (never know who is an authorized Taylor dealer, or a close friend of one on the internet).
That's right. You never know. Without information first-hand from either the company or the dealer involved, which neither one is required to disclose, what has happened is between them and no one outside of the owners (employees or 'close friends' included) should feel that they are entitled to know anything more. There is no reason for someone to share details regarding a matter such as this, especially if someone is just going to smear it all over the internet.

Jim and Jon have handled the situation professionally and with a great deal of class. Already, changes are in place that have allowed new opportunities to open up for them that may not have otherwise and their respective shops will likely reap the benefits of their new endeavors.

darylcrisp

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #40 on: July 20, 2013, 03:13:32 PM »
and should any of our customers decide they are ready to step up, we hope they will think of us.

I'm confused by this statement.  Step up to what?  From what?

hey dennis
that's a common phrase we use locally, like if i'm driving a Ford and my buddy who sells chevys says "hey D, if you want to step up to a chevy let me know".
we don't use it as demeaning locally-its just a phrase. i am not Jim nor do i speak for him but
i think he simply meant if anyone wants to try out a different brand he is selling now.

d

wooglins

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #41 on: July 20, 2013, 03:30:49 PM »
I doubt it has anything to do with MAP.  LA Guitars was on the top dealer list, and they are also very competitive when it comes to price. 

It is sad to see Guitar Rodeo dropped as a dealer as they have been part of the Taylor family for along time, and have been featured in Wood&Steel more than once.  There are always things that our intuition cannot tell us, and in this case I am certain there are some of those at work.

ewalling

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #42 on: July 20, 2013, 03:45:20 PM »
hey dennis
that's a common phrase we use locally, like if i'm driving a Ford and my buddy who sells chevys says "hey D, if you want to step up to a chevy let me know".
we don't use it as demeaning locally-its just a phrase.

I'm not even from the US originally, but I understood perfectly that Jim must have meant what you just said.

MR XXXXX

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #43 on: July 21, 2013, 12:51:01 AM »
I think you are wrong, but that's cool.  I think if you look closely, every single one of those guitars has had a spec change of some sort, and I am quite sure one of the largest internet retailers knows the rules and follows them.  They are almost never the problem in the retail world.  BUT HEY MAN, LEMME GO CHECK MY FACTS.
Spec changes have nothing to do with it. 2010 model guitars, still adhering to MAP.
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/acoustics/taylor/500.htm
That I know NOTHING about... (never know who is an authorized Taylor dealer, or a close friend of one on the internet).
That's right. You never know. Without information first-hand from either the company or the dealer involved, which neither one is required to disclose, what has happened is between them and no one outside of the owners (employees or 'close friends' included) should feel that they are entitled to know anything more. There is no reason for someone to share details regarding a matter such as this, especially if someone is just going to smear it all over the internet.

Jim and Jon have handled the situation professionally and with a great deal of class. Already, changes are in place that have allowed new opportunities to open up for them that may not have otherwise and their respective shops will likely reap the benefits of their new endeavors.


So your backwards logic is that if some OTHER dealer doesn't drop the price on a guitar that no longer is held under MAP, then the dealers that DO are violating policy?  Nobody is forcing a dealer to sell at a lower price,  Wildwood can sell those guitars at full pop retail for it matters, still doesn't mean MF is breaking a policy.   You clearly are buddies with some people who just got their dealership yanked, and are in over your head in this conversation. 
« Last Edit: July 23, 2013, 10:41:33 AM by MR XXXXX »

e8n

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Re: Taylor's loss is The Podium's gain
« Reply #44 on: July 21, 2013, 11:23:17 AM »
I think you are wrong, but that's cool.  I think if you look closely, every single one of those guitars has had a spec change of some sort, and I am quite sure one of the largest internet retailers knows the rules and follows them.  They are almost never the problem in the retail world.  BUT HEY MAN, LEMME GO CHECK MY FACTS.
Spec changes have nothing to do with it. 2010 model guitars, still adhering to MAP.
http://www.wildwoodguitars.com/acoustics/taylor/500.htm
That I know NOTHING about... (never know who is an authorized Taylor dealer, or a close friend of one on the internet).
That's right. You never know. Without information first-hand from either the company or the dealer involved, which neither one is required to disclose, what has happened is between them and no one outside of the owners (employees or 'close friends' included) should feel that they are entitled to know anything more. There is no reason for someone to share details regarding a matter such as this, especially if someone is just going to smear it all over the internet.

Jim and Jon have handled the situation professionally and with a great deal of class. Already, changes are in place that have allowed new opportunities to open up for them that may not have otherwise and their respective shops will likely reap the benefits of their new endeavors.


So your backwards logic is that if some OTHER dealer doesn't drop the price on a guitar that no longer is held under MAP, then the dealers that DO are violating policy?  Nobody is forcing a dealer to sell at a lower price,  Wildwood can sell those guitars at full pop retail for it matters, still doesn't mean MF is breaking a policy.   You clearly are buddies with some people who just got their dealership yanked, and are in over your head in this conversation.  But let me clear this up.  When a Taylor goes through a design change, and has NEW SPECS, the guitars with the OLD specs are no longer subject to the companies MAP policy.  Read and re-read, then settle down.

Reno1979, just wondering how you can speak with such authority on the subject? 

-Dave
2011 Taylor Custom GS (Adi/Rosewood)
2012 Taylor 814LTD Spring Limited
2008 Fender Telecaster
2010 Kentucky Mandolin

Guitars of the past: Alvarez AD60, 2007 Taylor 110ce, 2006 Taylor 710ce, Taylor 2008 GS Fall Ltd, 2010 Taylor 814ce, 2010 Taylor K26c,2010 Taylor Custom DN, Taylor 714ce