Difference(s) Between Sitka Spruce & Cedar Top

[jrporter]

I'm curious as to what the tonal difference(s) is between tops of Sitka Spruce and Western Red Cedar, or more specifically a GA& and GA8. Thanks...

[sachi]

The cedar is typically "warmer" and with perhaps less ability to be driven hard. The cedar also may have more overtones than a spruce top guitar, although that definitely depends on how the guitar is built.

FWIW, when I compared the GC5 against a GC7 (both with cedar tops) the GC7 sounded muddy and unclear. So, I always recommend that folks try out Taylor's cedar/rosewood guitars before buying one, to be sure that they like the way they sound.

[Edward]

I love cedar for its warmth and attenuated highs.  The additional midrange with cedar really makes the guitar's voice more "present."   Couple this with less of the "upper" high end (where spruce is brighter and has more "zing" to the trebles), and the cedar really makes for a timbre that is full, rich, and seemingly louder picked or strummed (light to medium attack) since you're getting more midrange, the "meat" of a guitar's voice.   A cedar top has wonderfully defined tone with a crisp top end; the spruce will tend to be brighter on the top and has a bit of the "scooped" mids voice going on.  As a user of spurce for decades, I came to "discovering" how much I love this topwood, particularly when paired with rosewood in a GA, or mahog in a GS. 

Cedar also is more touch-sensitive, where light playing with fingers or pick really comes out better than spruce.  This has given cedar a bit of a bum-rap, IMHO, since so many folks believed it to be a poor strummer's guitar.  Well as a predominant strummer and hybrid picker, I believed this for decades, and so when I got my hands on a GA7 years ago, man I became an instant convert.  Cedar absolutely fares beautifully for all mild to moderately hard strumming.  I can see where a more aggressive or percussive player would want spruce, or perhaps with a dred or jumbo bod where volume and tonal girth (unamplified) are a priority.  And those who prefer brighter guitars with more snap and zing on the top can find cedar tame or dark, favoring spruce. 

As for your specific GA7/8 question, my old GA7e was my go-to guitar for anything live (I'm maybe a 5% fingerpicker so hybrid picking and strumming is my norm), and it is a stellar choice, IMHO.

Edward

[mgap]

I love cedar for its warmth and attenuated highs.  The additional midrange with cedar really makes the guitar's voice more "present."   Couple this with less of the "upper" high end (where spruce is brighter and has more "zing" to the trebles), and the cedar really makes for a timbre that is full, rich, and seemingly louder picked or strummed (light to medium attack) since you're getting more midrange, the "meat" of a guitar's voice.   A cedar top has wonderfully defined tone with a crisp top end; the spruce will tend to be brighter on the top and has a bit of the "scooped" mids voice going on.  As a user of spurce for decades, I came to "discovering" how much I love this topwood, particularly when paired with rosewood in a GA, or mahog in a GS.

I own both cedar/mahogany(514ce) and cedar/ rosewood(714ce) and spruce/rosewood(814ce) and I like to play all of them, but when pressed for the one guitar that would be considered my go to guitar it would be the 514ce, I am a strummer and a picker and love that guitar, its great.

Cedar also is more touch-sensitive, where light playing with fingers or pick really comes out better than spruce.  This has given cedar a bit of a bum-rap, IMHO, since so many folks believed it to be a poor strummer's guitar.  Well as a predominant strummer and hybrid picker, I believed this for decades, and so when I got my hands on a GA7 years ago, man I became an instant convert.  Cedar absolutely fares beautifully for all mild to moderately hard strumming.  I can see where a more aggressive or percussive player would want spruce, or perhaps with a dred or jumbo bod where volume and tonal girth (unamplified) are a priority.  And those who prefer brighter guitars with more snap and zing on the top can find cedar tame or dark, favoring spruce. 

As for your specific GA7/8 question, my old GA7e was my go-to guitar for anything live (I'm maybe a 5% fingerpicker so hybrid picking and strumming is my norm), and it is a stellar choice, IMHO.

Edward

edited to separate post from quote

[Strumming Fool]

I recently had the opportunity to play two 714s - one with cedar and one with sitka. All else was the same. The cedar 714 was darker, softer (not in volume) and warmer, while the sitka 714 was brighter with more articulation between the registers of bass, midrange and treble. Think of them like two photgraphs - the cedar "photo" is soft and gauzy, while the sitka "photo" is sharply in focus. Both are appealing to the eye (and ear). That day, I would have chosen the sitka model, but I do love most cedar-topped guitars....

[ewalling]

In cedar's favor also, according to Bob Taylor, is that the likelihood of our getting a really nice quality piece for the top is greater than it is for spruce.

[play2praiseHim]

Cedar is warmer, richer, and more responsive.  The trebles are rounder or fatter, the mids are more present, and the bass is full. I prefer cedar tops on Taylor GA size.

[joe the strummer]

My experience with cedar is that it is warmer but also quieter.  I have a 2012 GS5.  I like the tone, but the sound could be called a smaller scale version (lower volume, less projection) of a buddy's 900 series GC ce. 

The GS5 is a nice, dark tone in the Taylor lineup.  I think it will be important for you to try a cedar top and A/B with spruce while you try it.  Back/sides wood may also be an important consideration.

[jjrpilot-admin]

Cedar is warmer, richer, and more responsive.  The trebles are rounder or fatter, the mids are more present, and the bass is full. I prefer cedar tops on Taylor GA size.

You bring up a point that I've always wondered about...do we equate a "warm" sound with bass?  How would you all describe bass vs warm?

(sorry...hope I didn't highjack the thread...    )

[ewalling]

You bring up a point that I've always wondered about...do we equate a "warm" sound with bass?  How would you all describe bass vs warm?

That's how I've always understood it. When people say a guitar has a 'warm' sound, I imagine a sort of the EQ on the guitar that has the bass upped and the trebles downed.

[Strumming Fool]

For me, "warm" means that all the notes are "fatter" and blend a bit more with each other. The opposite would be "bright" with a bit more focus on each individual note. However, these are generalizations. My cedar topped 1997 GA is my loudest guitar. Articulation and sparkle accompany the warmer, darker sound of this particular guitar. I also once owned a Brazilian/cedar (other brand) guitar that actually sounded a bit harsh to me, so a lot still depends on the builder, bracing, etc....

[Edward]

Cedar is warmer, richer, and more responsive.  The trebles are rounder or fatter, the mids are more present, and the bass is full. I prefer cedar tops on Taylor GA size.

You bring up a point that I've always wondered about...do we equate a "warm" sound with bass?  How would you all describe bass vs warm?

(sorry...hope I didn't highjack the thread...    )

For me, "warm" is not more bass but attenuated highs and more midrange that lends a thicker overall tone.

So-called "brighter" guitars have more "sizzle" to the trebles, and likewise those treble tones are thinner and seem to cut through and stand out amidst the overall voice of the guitar.  This "cut" or "zingy" quality is further enhanced by a midrange that is less pronounced; "scooped mids" is often a phrase used to describe this voicing where bass and treble seem to "weigh" more than the diminished midrange tones.  So "bright" guitars can have a good amount of bass, but it is the absent mids and enhanced highs that lend to that "bright" tone one hears.

By contrast, a "warmer" guitar has more pronounced midrange and mid-highs than the "bright" guitar, which thickens the overall timbre of that warm guitar.  And along with these enhanced mids is treble that has a less-pronounced upper end.  A warm guitar (a good one, IMHO anyway) should have a crispness around the notes that defines each individual note; it should not sound dull.  But this high end is not a predominant voice, instead sharing the guitar's tonal footprint with more midrange and mid-high tones.  The result is the overall voice of the guitar seems fatter, with individual notes (from bass notes up to treble strings played up the neck) sounding thicker. 

While I prefer the latter, taken too far a warmer guitar can easily lose tonal definition and notes can mush/blur together.  And while I personally don't care for a "bright" guitar, in its defense it offers a very clear "tonal picture" as if each note were clearly outlined with a bold sharpie.  This guitar definitely has its place given certain band/ensemble situations.  And so therein lies the point, at least in my mind: that line that separates an appropriately bright guitar from a thin one, or a warm/fat guitar tone from a dull one is a highly personal delineation.  It does not get more personal than this, and each player has to decide on his/her own "balance" of tones.  All the more reason to have more than one guitar (ahem, that's my story and I'm a stickin to it!   ).

Edward

[e8n]

Cedar is warmer, richer, and more responsive.  The trebles are rounder or fatter, the mids are more present, and the bass is full. I prefer cedar tops on Taylor GA size.

You bring up a point that I've always wondered about...do we equate a "warm" sound with bass?  How would you all describe bass vs warm?

(sorry...hope I didn't highjack the thread...    )

The sound picture would be sitka with a cold.  Lots of mids not a ton for highs and not so crisp low end. 

-Dave

[terrypl]

So-called "brighter" guitars have more "sizzle" to the trebles, and likewise those treble tones are thinner and seem to cut through and stand out amidst the overall voice of the guitar.  This "cut" or "zingy" quality is further enhanced by a midrange that is less pronounced;

By contrast, a "warmer" guitar has more pronounced midrange and mid-highs than the "bright" guitar, which thickens the overall timbre of that warm guitar. 

Edward's explanation (partly quoted above) is one of the best I've ever read. I own both cedar-topped and spruce-topped guitars (and love them both), and I think Edward does a great job of clearly stating what is very difficult to explain. One basic fact apparent in my two guitars is that the cedar model is quieter than my spruce model. But if I record them, that difference diminishes, since I can boost the volume of the quieter guitar and enjoy its tonal richness even more.

As others have stated, neither topwood is "better" than the other, as it depends on your own preferences and playing style. One thing that Edward didn't mention is that the less pronounced mids in a spruce-topped guitar provide a perfect tonal space for the human voice, which is why a singer/player might prefer a spruce top, while an instrumentalist might prefer a cedar top. The spruce allows the mid-range human voice to fit in the mix, while the cedar top provides a wider, more balanced range of of audible tones. Of course, there's certainly no "formula," as many singers do accompany themselves with cedar-topped guitars.

[Go Navy]

As a cedar topped 812ce owner who faced the same choice,  I agree 100% with Edward's commentary on the sound quality of cedar.  I love it.  I have a fairly light attack, play mostly with a pick, action set to factory specs, and almost always through an amp, so my priority was not maximizing acoustic volume.  That said, I've strummed it fairly hard once or twice just to see what happens and I don't hear anything other than good tones.  I have played some other cedar top Taylors at a recent Find Your Fit event, and it just reinforced my love of cedar.