TS 1/4" to XLR?

[Edward]

My apologies as I've posted this same reply over and over, but I do so only because I think it bears mentioning: try both balanced and unbalanced ...only then can you decide which works better for you.

I know what the ES is designed to do, and I wholeheartedly agree that the low impedance output is an asset to an already excellent system.  But I have tried going both balanced and unbalanced, with and without DIs, with and without preamps (which did and did not have balanced inputs), and frankly there are many many variables which must be accounted for in determining which is your best route.  All that to say running the TRS/XLR balanced out is not, by definition, the best way.  Some amps (or components) even hate Taylor's hotter op.  The inline impedance transformer is a great tool to have in the gigbag, as is the balanced cable.  But unless you're simply running straight into a snake/console, there are instances where a good quality guitar cable is the best answer ...say if you have effects, or want to run a preamp.  I, for example, found that my best route for my application is guitar cord (yeah, unbalanced) to Baggs Venue, to snake.  Pristine clean and sounds superb.  Going balanced did not help me one iota and simply added more to think about.  As I said, there are many ways to achieve good, clean acoustic tone with Taylor's ES.  My long-winded suggestion simply is to try it all and go with the simplest one that yields the best results for you.

Edward

[Edward]

Is it wrong that I feel like a complete idiot?  I never even heard of a "TRS" cable up to this point and thought a $70 1/4 inch monster cable made specifically for acoustic guitars would do the trick, but clearly it by itself can't cut the mustard.  I've been looking at TRS to XLR cables on the net and will definitely be purchasing one and will let you guys know how it goes.  I can't wait to hear what my expression system is really supposed to sound like...just wish I had known sooner.  Thanks again, guys, for bringing me into the loop

Don't feel like an idiot at all!  The concept of balanced signals is not native to guitarists, really.  That Taylor includes this "option" is testament (IMHO) of their committment to high-quality tone and studio/live-performance conditions.  It's a professional system on the face of it, designed by no less a studio great as Rupert Neve who is arguably in the upper echelon of audio engineering ...that's reputation, not hyperbole

FWIW, there is lots of hype about cables.  I won't cloud this discussion with that topic, but suffice it to say Monster has done much to market their wares which, IMHO, offers nothing to the musician apart from a really liberal warranty (which one truly pays for, at the cash register).  Give your ES a whirl with a balanced cable, and straight to a console and/or good PA instead of an amp: you will definitely hear what your ES is cabable of sounding like

Edward

[dougboy1970]

Is it wrong that I feel like a complete idiot?  I never even heard of a "TRS" cable up to this point and thought a $70 1/4 inch monster cable made specifically for acoustic guitars would do the trick, but clearly it by itself can't cut the mustard.  I've been looking at TRS to XLR cables on the net and will definitely be purchasing one and will let you guys know how it goes.  I can't wait to hear what my expression system is really supposed to sound like...just wish I had known sooner.  Thanks again, guys, for bringing me into the loop

Don't feel like an idiot at all!  The concept of balanced signals is not native to guitarists, really.  That Taylor includes this "option" is testament (IMHO) of their committment to high-quality tone and studio/live-performance conditions.  It's a professional system on the face of it, designed by no less a studio great as Rupert Neve who is arguably in the upper echelon of audio engineering ...that's reputation, not hyperbole

FWIW, there is lots of hype about cables.  I won't cloud this discussion with that topic, but suffice it to say Monster has done much to market their wares which, IMHO, offers nothing to the musician apart from a really liberal warranty (which one truly pays for, at the cash register).  Give your ES a whirl with a balanced cable, and straight to a console and/or good PA instead of an amp: you will definitely hear what your ES is cabable of sounding like

Edward

Sounds good...I'll definitely give it a try to see how the ES would sound with it, if it doesn't win out, at least I still have my DI and other cables.  Oh, one thing is, my guitar is a 2008, and while it uses a 9volt battery, I think it may not be the most recent iteration of the ES as it has two switches inside, rather than one.  I've read posts saying that the ES I have isn't as good as the newer version.  Will the balanced cabling at least make me hear what Taylor intended with my generation of ES?    I have a couple of cable questions, and please forgive my ignorance regarding conduction, but what makes a cable balanced or unbalanced?  Also, why did going balanced not help you one iota when you tried it?

[Edward]

I've owned all three generations of ES, and while this third gen (2010 to present) is, IMHO, a better, more natural "acoustic" tone than its predecessors, the previous-gen 9v system is no slouch.  The most significant tonal difference is in the mids where the older version needs more mids attenuated to sound like an acoustic guit (and less like a magnetic pickup like electrics), and the current ES is voiced such that you need very little (if at all, depending) tone sculpting; it's that good (again, IMHO whereas many do not care for the ES tone, which I won't go into here).  You have a good ES.  If you got around 2 bills to burn and/or you're more finicky about your live tone, then you can easily upgrade your system to the present ...a bit OT, but thought i'd just drop that in your ear as I have done two guits to date as that is how much I like it

As for balanced vs unbalanced, try this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

The gist is you get a better signal-to-noise ratio, superior noise rejection (e.g. ground loops or RF), and increased cable length will not degrade the signal.

As for why I went from balanced to unbalanced it's simple: I gained nothing from an already clean signal and great tone.  This and the fact I use an LR Baggs Venue and, again, running balanced to the unit offered no better tone, just more signal (which I did not need).  In fact, that hotter signal overwhelmed my previous Baggs PADI, and I've likewise seen other units (especially acosutic guitar amps) whose input pad is not stout enough to "gain down" that very healthy signal, which results in your turning down the ES at the guitar waaay low, and sometimes even mild distortion because you're overdriving the input.  And it depends on what system you're playing through.  As I had mentioned, it's important to try it different ways, be objective, and determine which works best for you.  And for me, simple setup/teardown and the most direct (and again, simple) signal chain is better so long as the tonal results are good.  So if more complex yields no practical improvement, then why bother.  FWIW, I always carry my balanced cable and matching transformer as back up ...better to have and not "need" than to need and not have, right?  I hope what I've said doesn't complicate things; just offering my perspective.  If there's a simple take away from all this it is that the ES is a great system that not only works and sounds excellent, it provides one options that help anyone playing live get the most out of their guitar.

Edward

[dougboy1970]

I've owned all three generations of ES, and while this third gen (2010 to present) is, IMHO, a better, more natural "acoustic" tone than its predecessors, the previous-gen 9v system is no slouch.  The most significant tonal difference is in the mids where the older version needs more mids attenuated to sound like an acoustic guit (and less like a magnetic pickup like electrics), and the current ES is voiced such that you need very little (if at all, depending) tone sculpting; it's that good (again, IMHO whereas many do not care for the ES tone, which I won't go into here).  You have a good ES.  If you got around 2 bills to burn and/or you're more finicky about your live tone, then you can easily upgrade your system to the present ...a bit OT, but thought i'd just drop that in your ear as I have done two guits to date as that is how much I like it

As for balanced vs unbalanced, try this :
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio

The gist is you get a better signal-to-noise ratio, superior noise rejection (e.g. ground loops or RF), and increased cable length will not degrade the signal.

As for why I went from balanced to unbalanced it's simple: I gained nothing from an already clean signal and great tone.  This and the fact I use an LR Baggs Venue and, again, running balanced to the unit offered no better tone, just more signal (which I did not need).  In fact, that hotter signal overwhelmed my previous Baggs PADI, and I've likewise seen other units (especially acosutic guitar amps) whose input pad is not stout enough to "gain down" that very healthy signal, which results in your turning down the ES at the guitar waaay low, and sometimes even mild distortion because you're overdriving the input.  And it depends on what system you're playing through.  As I had mentioned, it's important to try it different ways, be objective, and determine which works best for you.  And for me, simple setup/teardown and the most direct (and again, simple) signal chain is better so long as the tonal results are good.  So if more complex yields no practical improvement, then why bother.  FWIW, I always carry my balanced cable and matching transformer as back up ...better to have and not "need" than to need and not have, right?  I hope what I've said doesn't complicate things; just offering my perspective.  If there's a simple take away from all this it is that the ES is a great system that not only works and sounds excellent, it provides one options that help anyone playing live get the most out of their guitar.

Edward

Edward & Herb, all I can say it thanks, and thanks again.  I've learned so much on this post...I feel like a dried out sponge finally getting water.

[Go Navy]

I'll add my thanks, too.  This is an excellent thread and I take no credit!  I would even say it might qualify as a "stickie" for future reference.

[Herb Hunter]

...In fact, that hotter signal overwhelmed my previous Baggs PADI, and I've likewise seen other units (especially acosutic guitar amps) whose input pad is not stout enough to "gain down" that very healthy signal, which results in your turning down the ES at the guitar waaay low, and sometimes even mild distortion because you're overdriving the input. ...

I was surprised by the above as turning the volume down on the guitar should prevent overload of the L.R. Baggs Para DI. If the ES can be plugged straight into a microphone jack with good results, why would the Para DI (which is designed for a much stronger, line-level input), become overloaded by the ES?

[dougboy1970]

OK, I went to my favorite music store and a/b'd the 1/4trs/xlr verses my 1/4 inch standard guitar cable to my baggs para di to an xlr cable...i left all settings on center detent in both situations.  Basically, I got the same outcome from both, a spreading of the signal that made the guitar sound extremely full. 

Through the TRS there WAS LOADS of power, so much so we had to turn the volume down quite a bit.  But that doesn't bother me, I really like the fact that with one cable, and using the guitar's eq, I can just plug and play.  And now, the guitar finally sounds the way it's supposed to WITHOUT additional help from a DI.  I've complained about the ES before while using the standard unbalanced quarter inch, and while I have the second generation ES, which I understand isn't quite as good as the newest, the ES IS FAR BETTER THAN I THOUGHT through the balanced cables.  I've had the guitar since 2008, but I feel as if I'm hearing it for the first time, at least from a plugged in perspective.

Finally, my buddy and I were complaining, why didn't Taylor tell us about TRS cables before?  Well, they did, many times!  The very tech sheet that came with my guitar even had a picture illustration:

http://www.taylorguitars.com/global/pdfs/02_ExpressionSystem.pdf

In my naivete I must have thought a guitar cable was a guitar cable and skipped over that part, not understanding what TRS meant.  So, I got the most expensive unbalanced "acoustic" Monster cable, but that meant nothing because it was missing TRS.  Live and learn and now I'm very happy to have learned this lesson, and much happier with Taylor and sorry I dogged them so, even on this forum, about the ES.  It was my own fault I wasn't getting the best out of the ES, not Taylor's...

My advice now, if you don't have a TRS cable for your Expression System, you have no idea what your guitar is capable of, and it has those capabilities WITHOUT A DI! 

[Captain Jim]

So, is there a difference between this cable...

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-HOS-STX1M-LIST

And the one that has the Taylor name on it?

Is there an advantage to the TRS to XLR for the ES-T?

Inquiring minds want to know. 

[roadbiker]

I was in a similar dilemna when I bought my 814ce. The amp I bought was a Fishman Loudbox Mini (an I now also have the VOX AGA70) and I noticed that the volume playing my Taylor through the amp was a lot lower than the volume form my Epiphone with the same settings on the amp. Based on what I read in this forum (mainly from Edward), I bought a Monster Cable TS 1/4" - XLR balanced cable and a impedence transformer (Audix) and the difference in performance was incredible. The increase in volume was immediately noticeable.

Jim

[Edward]

...In fact, that hotter signal overwhelmed my previous Baggs PADI, and I've likewise seen other units (especially acosutic guitar amps) whose input pad is not stout enough to "gain down" that very healthy signal, which results in your turning down the ES at the guitar waaay low, and sometimes even mild distortion because you're overdriving the input. ...

I was surprised by the above as turning the volume down on the guitar should prevent overload of the L.R. Baggs Para DI. If the ES can be plugged straight into a microphone jack with good results, why would the Para DI (which is designed for a much stronger, line-level input), become overloaded by the ES?

Yeah, Herb, kind of surprised me as well.  I gained down the PADI to its minimum, and still had a hint of overdrive unless I turned the guit's ES volume waaaaay down (I can't recall exactly to where as it was some time ago, but my recollection was that it was set around the 9:00 position).  And with the pot at that level, the knob just seemed really touchy (though who knows if that was due to the pot's taper or the dynamics of the gain being what it was.  In any event, running balanced into the PADI proved to be too touchy/sensitive ...I hate "fussing" over settings.  One of the perks of the Venue over the PADI is its ability to handle a much broader range of input gain.  The Venue handled the ES' hotter balanced signal with aplomb.  Nevertheless, I ended up just going unbalanced to the Venue is it just simplified life by one more step. 

Hey Capt Jim,
As far as I know, the ES-T on the 100s/200s are unbalanced signals only.  So just use a good guitar cable. 

Edward

[Herb Hunter]

So, is there a difference between this cable...

http://www.americanmusical.com/Item--i-HOS-STX1M-LIST

And the one that has the Taylor name on it?

Is there an advantage to the TRS to XLR for the ES-T?

Inquiring minds want to know. 

I don't think there is any way of knowing without trying both unless one has access to cable specifications which are not often provided. Apart from durability, the thing to look for in a cable is low capacitance. The high capacitance inhibits the transmission of high frequencies. In comparing the capacitance of medium and high priced cables (based on manufacturers specifications), I've found a few instances where a more expensive cable had a higher capacitance than a less expensive one.


Planet Waves is one of the companies that has medium priced, low capacitance cables.

[Go Navy]

In my naivete I must have thought a guitar cable was a guitar cable and skipped over that part, not understanding what TRS meant.  So, I got the most expensive unbalanced "acoustic" Monster cable, but that meant nothing because it was missing TRS.  Live and learn and now I'm very happy to have learned this lesson, and much happier with Taylor and sorry I dogged them so, even on this forum, about the ES.  It was my own fault I wasn't getting the best out of the ES, not Taylor's...

My advice now, if you don't have a TRS cable for your Expression System, you have no idea what your guitar is capable of, and it has those capabilities WITHOUT A DI! 

Doughboy, I think you're in the majority regarding your comment about "thought a guitar cable was a guitar cable".  I think most of us, definitely including me, have never dealt with balanced output. I've always just bought an "affordable" cable, jacked it in, and started twisting knobs on my guitars and amp.  All over this forum and the AGF, you'll see people recommending D.I. boxes when, in the case of most ES-equipped Taylors (or possibly other brands??), we now have learned they aren't necessary.  This is good news for those of us emerging from the darkness, stumbling into the bright light of knowledge......another great feature of Taylors.  By the way, in the guitar case with my new 812ce were a number of tech sheets from Taylor including one on the ES system.

[dougboy1970]

So true, Go Navy (BTW, my Dad is retired Navy 20 years, I lived at NAS Brunswick, ME and NAS Jax, FL, back and forth before he retired in 79...P3 Orion squadron)

I'm actually putting my Baggs DI up for sale in the next day or so...even my mini hog top sounds amazing through it...it must also have a trs capable jack as well?

[egkor]

I use a DI box mainly because I want to have a place to plug a "monitor" amp into so that I can hear my guitar.  The DI boxes I'm familiar with have two 1/4" TS (1 for "in", 1 for "out") and a XL/R out to FOH (main PA/mixer).  This gives me the 1/4" out I need to use a monitor amp.

So from my Taylors to the DI box, I use a 1/4" TS to 1/4" TS Planet Waves guitar cable with the "signal breaker" button on the instrument-end 1/4" plug.  That way I can plug in/unplug without all the pops/etc.

BTW I do carry a 10' 1/4" TRS to male XLR cable plus matching "transformer+gender changer" as a backup.

-Gary K