TS 1/4" to XLR?

[Go Navy]

My amp has a combination input on Channel A.....which will accept either a 1/4 inch mono jack or an XLR plug.  Various threads have suggested in the past that you get a better sound out of a Taylor by using the XLR connection on the amp.  Does that apply to the newest version of the ES system?

2nd Question: Does it make any difference if the 1/4 inch end of this XLR cable is mono or stereo?  Normally, with my other guitars, I simply run a 1/4 inch mono on both ends.  The 812ce seems to work fine with that cable. I don't own any XLR cables so I'm considering whether to buy one.

[Edward]

My amp has a combination input on Channel A.....which will accept either a 1/4 inch mono jack or an XLR plug.  Various threads have suggested in the past that you get a better sound out of a Taylor by using the XLR connection on the amp.  Does that apply to the newest version of the ES system?

2nd Question: Does it make any difference if the 1/4 inch end of this XLR cable is mono or stereo?  Normally, with my other guitars, I simply run a 1/4 inch mono on both ends.  The 812ce seems to work fine with that cable. I don't own any XLR cables so I'm considering whether to buy one.

As to your fist Q: One gets better signal (better "tone" is debatable)  that is cleaner with superior signal to noise ratio when using the balanced output from the ES system, and of course, that includes the current version.  Moreover, when running a balanced signal a longer cable length does not degrade the signal.  But, whether yours or any amp will yield better tone when utilizing the balanced cable ...that is a wholly different story that will differ on every amp.  It is a question of input gain and impedance on a given amp and whether it matches well with Taylor's, as well as the fact that some amp's balanced input vs unbalanced input go through different EQ circuits which will affect tone.  Especially if that combo input is "voiced" for a mic input ...whoa, now it definitely EQ'd differently!  No way to predict whether you will prefer one over the other; you have to plug it in and see which you like.

As for your 2nd point, I think you are misunderstanding the 1/4" end of a balanced cable.  That end is not "stereo," though it can be confused as such since stereo headphones have the same configuration: TRS, which means tip, ring, and sleeve conductors.  For a balanced cable such as the one that works with the ES systems, that TRS end correlates to the XLR 1,2, and ground pinouts ...nothing at all to do with stereo.  So if you're using a simple 1/4 to 1/4 (as in a regular guitar cable), that is a typical unbalanced signal.  Your desire to try out the balanced output of the ES requires that you get a true balanced cable where the XLR and TRS have the correct pinouts (not all the same).  Clearly, Taylor sells these cables, but you are not limited to Taylor.  Hope that helps you a bit

Edward

[S MS Picker]

What Edward said. Be sure to get the male XLR end. I have 3 extension cords w/female XLR connectors.
Steve

[Go Navy]

That clears up something that I am misunderstanding.....you're saying the output jack on the Taylor will take EITHER a mono or TRS plug (with the right "pinouts")....correct?

So, if I were to buy a TRS to XLR cable, male on both ends, from any source, it might not have the right pinouts on the TRS end?  Therefor should I just buy Taylor's somewhat pricey cable product?

S MS.....thanks for the caution on the XLR end being male.....I could have easily made that mistake and started a collection like yours.....but I haven't bought anything yet.

[dougboy1970]

IMO, what really helps is when you use a DI separated by the two cables, a quarter inch cable from your guitar into a DI, and then a separate XLR cable out of the DI into the PA.  I've used a LR Baggs Para D.I. and have also tried the Fishman one with the modeling.  These definitely give your guitar a much fuller tone, from bass to treble, IMO.

[Fire]

So, if I were to buy a TRS to XLR cable, male on both ends, from any source, it might not have the right pinouts on the TRS end?  Therefor should I just buy Taylor's somewhat pricey cable product?

For a fraction of the Taylor's cost, I bought a balanced TRS to XLR from http://www.monoprice.com/products/department.asp?c_id=108. I also have the more pricey Taylor version but I don't notice any difference in tonal quality.

[Edward]

I never priced Taylor's cable so didn't know theirs is pricey.  But yes, most any TRS/XLR cable is fine.   And if the pinout is incorrect (the correct pinout is on their website), that's one very easy solder job away.

Edward

[Scriptor]

There is definitely a difference in quality going balanced TRS to XLR to my Fishman Loudbox Artist.  And not all cables are created equal.  Get a good cable and don't let that be the weak link.  Balanced will cut down on noise and give a better result.

[Herb Hunter]

That clears up something that I am misunderstanding.....you're saying the output jack on the Taylor will take EITHER a mono or TRS plug (with the right "pinouts")....correct?

The Expression System's output will take either a mono (2 conductor) plug or a TRS (3 conductor) plug. Use of the mono plug results in a 3 db drop in output and reduced resistance to induced noise.

So, if I were to buy a TRS to XLR cable, male on both ends, from any source, it might not have the right pinouts on the TRS end?  Therefor should I just buy Taylor's somewhat pricey cable product?

The pinouts for a TRS to EXLR cable are standard. I'm not aware of any such cables that deviate from the standard. The desirable qualities for the cable are low capacitance and durability. Usually, medium priced cables prove those attributes.

[Herb Hunter]

IMO, what really helps is when you use a DI separated by the two cables, a quarter inch cable from your guitar into a DI, and then a separate XLR cable out of the DI into the PA.  I've used a LR Baggs Para D.I. and have also tried the Fishman one with the modeling.  These definitely give your guitar a much fuller tone, from bass to treble, IMO.

The Expression System was designed to have a low-impedance, balanced output (when used with a TRS to XLR or TRS to TRS cable) so that a D.I. box would be unnecessary. By using a standard, quarter-inch, two-conductor cable and plugging the guitar into a D.I. box, you are converting the ES's output to an unbalanced one then converting it back to balanced (via the D.I. box). In so doing, you are increasing the system's susceptibility to induction noise. It is sort of like a S.W.A.T. team member removing his bullet proof vest before emerging from the transport vehicle walking in harms way for a short distance, exposed to gunfire, and then putting it back on when there was no reason to remove it in the first place.

[dougboy1970]

IMO, what really helps is when you use a DI separated by the two cables, a quarter inch cable from your guitar into a DI, and then a separate XLR cable out of the DI into the PA.  I've used a LR Baggs Para D.I. and have also tried the Fishman one with the modeling.  These definitely give your guitar a much fuller tone, from bass to treble, IMO.

The Expression System was designed to have a low-impedance, balanced output (when used with a TRS to XLR or TRS to TRS cable) so that a D.I. box would be unnecessary. By using a standard, quarter-inch, two-conductor cable and plugging the guitar into a D.I. box, you are converting the ES's output to an unbalanced one then converting it back to balanced (via the D.I. box). In so doing, you are increasing the system's susceptibility to induction noise. It is sort of like a S.W.A.T. team member removing his bullet proof vest before emerging from the transport vehicle walking in harms way for a short distance, exposed to gunfire, and then putting it back on when there was no reason to remove it in the first place.

That's really interesting...I never had it presented this way.   Allow me a few question because you clearly understand the engineering better than I do.  When I plug directly into my Fishman Soloamp through my expensive quarter inch Monster Acoustic Cable (http://www.amazon.com/Monster-Acoustic-Instrument-Cable-ft/dp/B0002GMFOQ/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1333224991&sr=8-2), it sounds like half the guitar I get when going through the DI.  Everything seems compressed to a tiny range of "middle" frequency.  When I play through the DI into the xlr there's a heck of lot more lows and highs, even if the LR Baggs DIs eq low, med, and high are all on center detent.  Is there a way I could achieve this same increase in "bandwidth" (if that's the right word) without having bought the DI?  Also, I know what you're saying about the extra noise.  I have to adjust the gain and two other settings to get as much of that out as possible, but the fuzz seems worth the amazingly richer tone I get out of the DI.

[Herb Hunter]

When you plug your guitar into the SoloAmp with nothing but a standard guitar cable (2-conductor) you are dropping the guitar's signal volume by 3 dB and you are feeding the SoloAmp a low-impedance signal when it is designed for a high impedance signal. Some amplifiers respond to an impedance mismatch better than others and it might be that the SoloAmp doesn't respond well to your guitar's low impedance signal. The L.R. Baggs Para DI is, to my way of thinking, misnamed. It is much more than a D.I box (which typically has no controls) it is a preamplifier with equalization controls and a D.I. jack. I'm guessing that its preamp circuitry responds better to your guitar's low impedance signal than the preamp in your SoloAmp and/or the Para DI is altering the frequency response of the guitar signal in a way that sounds pleasing to you.


In theory, the two best ways to connect the Expression System to the SoloAmp is to use a TRS to XLR cable. One way is to plug the guitar directly into the SoloAmp's microphone input. The other way is to use the same TRS to XLR cable in conjunction with an impedance transformer which is then plugged into the SoloAmp's instrument jack. Both of these methods insure that the full output of the ES is used and that there is no impedance mismatch. I say in theory because in practice, depending on the specific characteristics of all the equipment in the chain, other ways of connecting the equipment may yield good results.

Low-impedance, balanced topology allows longer cable runs and resists induced noise better than high-impedance, unbalanced wiring which is why high-end recording and PA equipment is designed for it. Since most guitars aren't designed to that professional standard  (the Expression System is an exception), DI boxes are necessary to make them compatible with the high-end equipment.


Here is are inexpensive impedance transformers


http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2062443


http://RSK.imageg.net/graphics/product_images/pRS1C-2160352w345.jpg
http://www.guitarcenter.com/Audix-T-50K-Inline-Impedance-Matching-Transformer-103670980-i1128417.gc

[Go Navy]

Great discussion. I'm sold.  I bit the bullet and ordered a TRS to XLR cable direct from Taylor, the 15 footer. I'm going to go direct into the XLR input on my Phil Jones AG150 Cub II amp.  This amp has an effects loop in/out, separately, so if I ever decide to add an effect (probably a chorus if any, or much less likely, maybe an EQ),  I'll use that separate loop.

[dougboy1970]

I am so totally going to try that...anything that can lessen the amount of equipment I have and get the best of my guitar is what I'm game for.  I've been disappointed in the Expression System up until now.  I just didn't know I wasn't using the proper connectors to get the best out of it...thanks so much for the advice, Herb!

[dougboy1970]

Is it wrong that I feel like a complete idiot?  I never even heard of a "TRS" cable up to this point and thought a $70 1/4 inch monster cable made specifically for acoustic guitars would do the trick, but clearly it by itself can't cut the mustard.  I've been looking at TRS to XLR cables on the net and will definitely be purchasing one and will let you guys know how it goes.  I can't wait to hear what my expression system is really supposed to sound like...just wish I had known sooner.  Thanks again, guys, for bringing me into the loop