Intonation Problems

[Luke]

Hi all,

I've owned a new-to-me Taylor 114ce for about 6 months now and I love it, however, I recently noticed some intonation issues.

The E, A, B & E strings always go sharp. Just playing a G & D note on the 3rd fret of the E and B strings respectively are quite sharp. Chords sound out of tune (enough to bug me) when using a capo on even the first or second fret, or when barring chords.

I've checked the open strings and 12th fret harmonic and they're all perfect, but, as you can imagine, once I fret the 12th, those 4 strings go very sharp.

I've tried adjusting the truss rod (my action is as low as possible and the neck looks straight to me) which didn't make much of a difference, I've also tried a compensated standard tuning that a seasoned player on another forum recommends, it certainly helped with staying more in-tune when using a capo but still not when fretting single notes closer to the body.

The strings are D'Addario PB Light's (.012-.053) EJ16's, the previous owner put them on before selling. They're essentially the exact same type and gauge of strings Taylor recommends for their GA guitars except for them not being Elixr's so I don't know if that's the issue, or the cold temperature, or maybe my saddle needs sanding down.

It took me a while to save up to buy this guitar so if you have any advice for what the problem may be or what I could try before shelling out more cash for a set-up, that'd be much appreciated!

Sorry for the long post!

[Frettingflyer]

I am sure people with more knowledge on setups will be along, but in the meantime, could you be pushing too hard? If you push down too hard on the strings the notes go sharp. If I had known when I played as a teen how lightly you really needed to fret I likely would not have had decades away before taking it up again. If you are super experienced please ignore, if not, try fretting a note just enough to mute it then gradually push harder while picking until the note rings clear, you may be surprised how little it takes.
Best of luck with it, there will be an answer.

[DennisG]

Has the intonation changed from when you first bought the guitar?  If so, it might be because your strings are pretty old, considering you haven’t changed them since you bought the guitar six months ago.  Before doing anything drastic or costly, I’d start by putting on a new set of strings.  I'm not absolutely positive that'll solve the problem, but a string change often cures a lot of ills.

[Edward]

...It took me a while to save up to buy this guitar so if you have any advice for what the problem may be or what I could try before shelling out more cash for a set-up, that'd be much appreciated!....

Hey Luke,

Not a long post at all.  Welcome aboard, and congrats on a great guitar!!

I presume you are using a decent electronic tuner to verify the fretted notes going sharp, correct?  If so, what you need is the saddle reshaped to adjust for intonation.  Taylor is very good at establishing good intonation, but perhaps this one slipped by QC.  If you bought this guitar new, call the factory and they will give you the names of Authorized Taylor techs in your area who can address your intonation under warranty for free.  If you did not buy the guitar new, then the same job will cost you a nominal fee (not expensive but ultimately depends on region) from said tech.  Btw, Dennis is right about old strings vs new: strings with lots of play will absolutely alter intonation.  Hope that helps you a bit.

Edward

[Earl]

Lots of good replies so far.  Old strings are the most likely culprit, IMHO.  One of the ways to tell that strings are shot is if they won't get into or stay in tune.  Another possibility is that the compensated saddle somehow got flipped during a string change.  The unwound b string (second string) should have a distinct step to help that string, and the saddle must be positioned so that the length of the b string is longer than its neighbors.

It is the nature of the acoustic guitar beast that wound strings tend to go sharper when fretted or capo'ed.  For me, the tuning *always* needs to be tweaked when using a capo, regardless of brand -- and I've tried them all.  Shubb Classic is my #1 followed by the Dunlop Trigger at #2.  The one that is by far the worst for me is the Kyser because the spring is so strong that it bends strings way out of tune.  Hope this helps.

[Luke]

Thanks, everyone for the helpful replies, much appreciated.

I am sure people with more knowledge on setups will be along, but in the meantime, could you be pushing too hard? If you push down too hard on the strings the notes go sharp. If I had known when I played as a teen how lightly you really needed to fret I likely would not have had decades away before taking it up again. If you are super experienced please ignore, if not, try fretting a note just enough to mute it then gradually push harder while picking until the note rings clear, you may be surprised how little it takes.
Best of luck with it, there will be an answer.

I thought that could be the issue too as I've only been playing for a few years now, but when testing by really softly pressing a note on the problem strings, they still go sharp so it must be something else.

Has the intonation changed from when you first bought the guitar?  If so, it might be because your strings are pretty old, considering you haven’t changed them since you bought the guitar six months ago.  Before doing anything drastic or costly, I’d start by putting on a new set of strings.  I'm not absolutely positive that'll solve the problem, but a string change often cures a lot of ills.

Now, this I'm not quite sure about, it wasn't something I noticed before, but I don't know if my ear has somehow gained this ability and therefore I'm only just noticing it now or if it's only just become an issue (probably the latter). I've got an extra set of the same strings that are on it now (EJ16's), or should I get Elixr's?

Got to be honest, I'm not a fan of new strings so I was putting off changing them because these had settled in, new strings are just too bright for me but I'll definitely get them changed, just want to order some ebony bridge pins first!

I'll post an update once I've changed the strings.

Hey Luke,

Not a long post at all.  Welcome aboard, and congrats on a great guitar!!

I presume you are using a decent electronic tuner to verify the fretted notes going sharp, correct?  If so, what you need is the saddle reshaped to adjust for intonation.  Taylor is very good at establishing good intonation, but perhaps this one slipped by QC.  If you bought this guitar new, call the factory and they will give you the names of Authorized Taylor techs in your area who can address your intonation under warranty for free.  If you did not buy the guitar new, then the same job will cost you a nominal fee (not expensive but ultimately depends on region) from said tech.  Btw, Dennis is right about old strings vs new: strings with lots of play will absolutely alter intonation.  Hope that helps you a bit.

Edward

Thanks a lot! Apart from the intonation issue and wishing it had a bit more low-end (the bass sound a bit weak depending on which room in the house I play in), I've been really enjoying it, Taylor sure does know how to make a great guitar.

Yes, I'm using the NS Micro Soundhole tuner, and it confirms the notes are going sharp. It is second-hand so no warranty, but there is a Taylor Authorised tech at a guitar shop in my city, I'm gonna send them an email, to get info on the services and prices since they don't list those on their website and if a string change doesn't solve the issue I'll have no choice but to take it into them for a set-up.

The strange thing is I've played guitars with years-old strings on them with absolutely no intonation issues so I find it odd that these lasted only a few months, maybe they were duds, or maybe D'Addario's just aren't as long-lasting as Elixr's or Martins, but I'll definitely change them, it's certainly an easy and cheap thing to do before getting a set-up.

Lots of good replies so far.  Old strings are the most likely culprit, IMHO.  One of the ways to tell that strings are shot is if they won't get into or stay in tune.  Another possibility is that the compensated saddle somehow got flipped during a string change.  The unwound b string (second string) should have a distinct step to help that string, and the saddle must be positioned so that the length of the b string is longer than its neighbors.

It is the nature of the acoustic guitar beast that wound strings tend to go sharper when fretted or capo'ed.  For me, the tuning *always* needs to be tweaked when using a capo, regardless of brand -- and I've tried them all.  Shubb Classic is my #1 followed by the Dunlop Trigger at #2.  The one that is by far the worst for me is the Kyser because the spring is so strong that it bends strings way out of tune.  Hope this helps.

I've checked the saddle and it looks to be in the correct position, I can post a pic if that'd help!

The funny thing is I am using a Kyser, it's a great capo but as you say the spring is far too strong, it not only affects intonation but also the tone, definitely part of the issue I'm having but not sure if it's the main culprit. Guess I'll be asking Santa for a Shubb this Christmas though

[Montesdad]

the most common cause of intonation problems discussed on other forums is high action.
when pressing down on the strings to the frets, the string stretches beyond what it should and the notes go sharp.
this is especially true of 'off the shelf' guitars as producers keep the action high so as not to buzz.

the best thing to do is have the guitar set up properly by a pro or someone well versed in such matters -
 i've had several new Taylors (none at the moment) over the years and every one of them needed a good setup to play properly.

first, to help at the at the first 3-5 frets, the nut slots need to be taken down on each string the just above the level of the first fret - about .001 - .003"
in the middle, the relief needs to be set properly from level to .005-8 thousanths or so.
last, the saddle needs to be adjusted, (or the neck for that matter) so the action at the 14th fret is where you want it - usually .008 to .011".

After all this is done with minor adjustments along the way, you can press all the way to the wood behind the fret and have minimal effect on going sharp - all the way up.

if you have a 100 series guitar, chances are it was made in mexico -
they do a good job there but their jobs are to manufacture and mass produce, not do custom work.

best to watch this video, it's pretty good:

Click Here

[CoryB]

I'll chime in on the "blame the old strings" idea as well. I know I'm in the minority, but I just don't like D'Addario strings. I've tried several flavors of them, including their new XS and never got what I was looking for. I also tried the highly rated John Pearse strings but they didn't last too long for me.

Believe it or not, the strings I use on most all of my guitars are Ernie Ball. I've been using them since the '70s on my electrics anyway. They seem to play in tune all of the way up the neck and sound as good to me as any other I've tried out.

Also, you might try an experiment where you drop down to .011 strings and see if you get the same problem. I found that heavier strings caused me to go out of tune more than lighter ones, especially if the nut slot height wasn't right.

I know it's easy to spend someone else's money but strings are a cheap experiment.

Good luck and I hope you get your issue resolved soon and economically.

[Luke]

the most common cause of intonation problems discussed on other forums is high action.
when pressing down on the strings to the frets, the string stretches beyond what it should and the notes go sharp.
this is especially true of 'off the shelf' guitars as producers keep the action high so as not to buzz.

the best thing to do is have the guitar set up properly by a pro or someone well versed in such matters -
 i've had several new Taylors (none at the moment) over the years and every one of them needed a good setup to play properly.

first, to help at the at the first 3-5 frets, the nut slots need to be taken down on each string the just above the level of the first fret - about .001 - .003"
in the middle, the relief needs to be set properly from level to .005-8 thousanths or so.
last, the saddle needs to be adjusted, (or the neck for that matter) so the action at the 14th fret is where you want it - usually .008 to .011".

After all this is done with minor adjustments along the way, you can press all the way to the wood behind the fret and have minimal effect on going sharp - all the way up.

if you have a 100 series guitar, chances are it was made in mexico -
they do a good job there but their jobs are to manufacture and mass produce, not do custom work.

best to watch this video, it's pretty good:

Click Here

Yup, it's a late 2018 Mexican-made model, not too old and the original owner didn't play it much so I don't know why I'm having problems, but if a string change doesn't fix the intonation issues then I'll have to take it in for a set-up.

My actions seems to be fine at the moment, I need to get a string height gauge to check the measurements but playing-wise it's not bad, even at the higher frets it's okay, my nut & saddle might need to be adjusted though as you suggested.

Thanks for all the info, that video is great too, hadn't seen it before and Chris always does a great job explaining things!

[Luke]

I'll chime in on the "blame the old strings" idea as well. I know I'm in the minority, but I just don't like D'Addario strings. I've tried several flavors of them, including their new XS and never got what I was looking for. I also tried the highly rated John Pearse strings but they didn't last too long for me.

Believe it or not, the strings I use on most all of my guitars are Ernie Ball. I've been using them since the '70s on my electrics anyway. They seem to play in tune all of the way up the neck and sound as good to me as any other I've tried out.

Also, you might try an experiment where you drop down to .011 strings and see if you get the same problem. I found that heavier strings caused me to go out of tune more than lighter ones, especially if the nut slot height wasn't right.

I know it's easy to spend someone else's money but strings are a cheap experiment.

Good luck and I hope you get your issue resolved soon and economically.

Yeah, that seems to be the consensus, strings are probably the main culprit and the easiest and cheapest thing to try, if it fixes the problem then great, I'll probably just never use D'Addario's again, if not then I need a set-up.

Prior to buying this guitar I had only experienced playing Elixir and Martin strings and they were both nice and long-lasting. I have an extra set of the D'Addarios which I'll use but I'll definitely try out some Ernie Ball strings down the line. I might try going down to even lighter strings but I do like hearing more low-end and thicker gauge strings help with that so I was actually considering going up a gauge but will stick with lights until the intonation problem is resolved.

Thanks, I hope so too!

[Edward]

Hey Luke,

Give the elixir med-lights a try: the EAD is from the medium set, and the GBE from the lights.  I’ve used this gauge in PB nanos for well over a decade and love them on both GA and GC body Taylors.  It’s the feel of lights but the bass tones of mediums …great sounding strings for those who like their lights but want a bit more oomph

Edward

[Luke]

Hey Luke,

Give the elixir med-lights a try: the EAD is from the medium set, and the GBE from the lights.  I’ve used this gauge in PB nanos for well over a decade and love them on both GA and GC body Taylors.  It’s the feel of lights but the bass tones of mediums …great sounding strings for those who like their lights but want a bit more oomph

Edward

Thanks for the recommendation!
I was actually looking at those on Amazon the other day, I'll definitely give them a try next!

[Montesdad]

Luke,

Certain strings, PB, 80/20, coated or not, different brands etc. do not cause intonation problems on a guitar.
If a guitar has intonation problems, it's the guitar - nut, saddle (compensated or not, high action at the nut, tall frets, several different reasons including an improperly made fretboard.
Certain individual strings can and will go bad, such as the 'b' string as it has the smallest core wire on a set - certain areas on the string can have issues, usually just before it breaks.
I've played guitars with 10, 20 and 30 year old strings on them, and the intonation was pretty much spot on.

Best to have a knowledgeable guitar tech if possible take a look at it if its a concern and you're not well versed on such matters.
A good one can press down here, there, look down the neck at the relief etc. and get pretty close, pretty quick.
Some guitars seem to play ok cause you can get used to anything, then when setup properly, they play great (like they should)

[Earl]

....my nut & saddle might need to be adjusted though....

Best to have a knowledgeable guitar tech if possible take a look at it if its a concern and you're not well versed on such matters.

A good set-up person is a blessing and can work wonders.  Just be sure that you take it to a Taylor tech, or at least someone familiar with the bolt-on NT neck system.  If the neck angle needs adjusting, that is an easy 15-minute swap of the shims.  If you take it to someone who only works on dovetail necks, the only thing they know to do is "sand down the saddle".  That is NOT the right way to tweak set-ups on Taylor guitars.  Sure you can sand the saddle slightly as a way to get that last tiny fraction of string height if you want to go lower than the Taylor factory spec of 6/64" for the bass E and 4/64" for the treble e.  But that factory action is satisfactory to most players, given proper neck relief and proper nut slot depths.

[Luke]

Hi all,

Hope everyone had a wonderful Christmas and New Year!

It's time for an update!

I changed the strings and the issues have mostly gone away. My tuner still shows that the problem strings are going sharp when fretted pretty much anywhere, however, it's to a much lesser degree and when strumming a chord (open, capo'd or barred) they ring true so any intonation problems are no longer noticeable (to my ear at least), which is great!

MANY thanks to everyone who replied, I really appreciate all the help and suggestions. I will still take my guitar for a setup sometime soon, but for now, it seems good enough.