12-string question

[KM Frye]

I've been playing 12string in concert pitch for about 50 years. Aria, Takamine, Rickenbacker, & Fender, among others. Only the Aria, which had a thin (spruce?), top grew a belly, but it was nearly 10 years in the making.   

Taylors are pretty well made. If only one of the above had an issue, I'd be really comfortable tuning anything built by Taylor to concert pitch.

[Guitars44me]

I agree with Susie's post that Taylor 12-string guitars are built to be tuned to concert pitch ... without incurring any damage.  One thing I would add is that there is another reason to tune a 12-string down a half or full step: to slightly slacken the strings, thus lowering the string tension, making the guitar even more comfortable to play.  I always tuned my 12-string down a full step (D-d).  And if I needed the guitar to be at concert pitch, I just put a capo on the second fret.

Tuning down certainly makes playing for extended times a lot easier. And it puts the guitar in my vocal sweet spot. D tuning is the secret sauce in a lot of songs!  Plus a 5string capo at the second fret yields a nice huge real D chord, and works great in G as well.

Have fun

Paul

[donlyn]

Other thoughts on a 12 string.

Been playing 12 stringers for about 55 years. And I will say this right up front. A good digital tuner is indispensable. And years ago they didn't have anything like the ones available now. So bouncing off the Pete Seeger tuning joke, it really was a bit of a joke tuning one.

Something I long suspected but wasn't able to prove, at least to myself, was that once you got done tuning once, it was still a bit out of tune. The advent of digital tuners was the game-changer. The trick is to go back an check the tunings in a second pass. Because of the extra tension on a 12, when you get to the finish of the first pass, the strings you first tuned are a bit off. But they are pretty close, so there is a little adjustment to be made for the second pass.

I am reminded of a folk singer named Michael "Mike" Cooney who would sometimes open tune a 12 string while chatting on stage. (That takes some guts in itself.) And in one extended patter, he said "It's like trying to tune a centipede!"

So no matter what you use to tune it, or what you tune it to, it takes a bit of extra work. So hat's off for owning a 12 string.

Since I now tune mine to 'D#' (used to be 'D' for many years), I have at hand a G7th Newport 12 string capo with the compensated string pad to put it back to standard, and play well with others. No need to re-tune using one of these capoes. Works great with the Taylor necks.

And one more quick thought. Don't limit yourself to material commonly associated with a 12 string. While the results aren't always the best, try playing some other material on the 12. As examples, I play "Walk Don't Run" and "Pipeline" with a 12. and that's just the tip of that iceberg.
 
Don

[KM Frye]

I've been playing Pipeline for decades, but on various and sundry electric 6's, even on my T5z more than once.  It never occurred to me to try it on a 12str electric.  You've given me something to tack a crack at!   

[SoCalSurf]

Other thoughts on a 12 string.

Been playing 12 stringers for about 55 years. And I will say this right up front. A good digital tuner is indispensable. And years ago they didn't have anything like the ones available now. So bouncing off the Pete Seeger tuning joke, it really was a bit of a joke tuning one.

Something I long suspected but wasn't able to prove, at least to myself, was that once you got done tuning once, it was still a bit out of tune. The advent of digital tuners was the game-changer. The trick is to go back an check the tunings in a second pass. Because of the extra tension on a 12, when you get to the finish of the first pass, the strings you first tuned are a bit off. But they are pretty close, so there is a little adjustment to be made for the second pass.

I own a rare Gisbon SJ-200 12-string guitar that, I kid you not, stays in tune longer than any of my 6-stringers. I mean, it's like something paranormal.

[donlyn]

Other thoughts on a 12 string.

Been playing 12 stringers for about 55 years. And I will say this right up front. A good digital tuner is indispensable. And years ago they didn't have anything like the ones available now. So bouncing off the Pete Seeger tuning joke, it really was a bit of a joke tuning one.

Something I long suspected but wasn't able to prove, at least to myself, was that once you got done tuning once, it was still a bit out of tune. The advent of digital tuners was the game-changer. The trick is to go back an check the tunings in a second pass. Because of the extra tension on a 12, when you get to the finish of the first pass, the strings you first tuned are a bit off. But they are pretty close, so there is a little adjustment to be made for the second pass.

I own a rare Gisbon SJ-200 12-string guitar that, I kid you not, stays in tune longer than any of my 6-stringers. I mean, it's like something paranormal.

My Taylor 12 string guitars seem to do a great job of staying in tune also, but maybe I'm getting tone deaf ?

Naaah.

But I do think you can just pick one up and start playing and it sounds pretty good right off the bat. And then sometimes it's like chasing a dozen cockroaches.

Congrats on the J-200 12 string; do you tune it down?

But wasn't 'Gisbon' the villain in the Errol Flynn Robin Hood movie? 

Or was that Orville's evil twin ?

Don

[Edward]

I've had two Taylor 12ers, one gone, one a keeper (the latter now for well over a decade), and neither ever --ever-- exhibited tuning difficulties.  6-string or 12, acoustic or electric, a guitar staying in tune is not some unicorn to chase after; guitars should stay in tune for the most part.  Barring significant changes in temp and RH, tuning should remain stable, and require only minor tweaks if temp/RH affect them.  FWIW, all mine have lived decades on a wall and I've never had to constantly retune --though putting them in a case to a gig or travel affect tuning, but that's normal.  If a guitar is not keeping tune, the fault is most often at a poorly-cut/finished nut. A 12-string acoustic is no exception to all this (we're not talking truly junk guitars, now, but any decent guit from any of the usual suspects right?).
Just sayin...

Edward

[Guitars44me]

I agree with ALL of this:

Other thoughts on a 12 string.

Been playing 12 stringers for about 55 years. And I will say this right up front. A good digital tuner is indispensable. And years ago they didn't have anything like the ones available now. So bouncing off the Pete Seeger tuning joke, it really was a bit of a joke tuning one.

Something I long suspected but wasn't able to prove, at least to myself, was that once you got done tuning once, it was still a bit out of tune. The advent of digital tuners was the game-changer. The trick is to go back an check the tunings in a second pass. Because of the extra tension on a 12, when you get to the finish of the first pass, the strings you first tuned are a bit off. But they are pretty close, so there is a little adjustment to be made for the second pass.

I am reminded of a folk singer named Michael "Mike" Cooney who would sometimes open tune a 12 string while chatting on stage. (That takes some guts in itself.) And in one extended patter, he said "It's like trying to tune a centipede!"

So no matter what you use to tune it, or what you tune it to, it takes a bit of extra work. So hat's off for owning a 12 string.

Since I now tune mine to 'D#' (used to be 'D' for many years), I have at hand a G7th Newport 12 string capo with the compensated string pad to put it back to standard, and play well with others. No need to re-tune using one of these capoes. Works great with the Taylor necks.

And one more quick thought. Don't limit yourself to material commonly associated with a 12 string. While the results aren't always the best, try playing some other material on the 12. As examples, I play "Walk Don't Run" and "Pipeline" with a 12. and that's just the tip of that iceberg.
 
Don

Especially the part about tuning again once you get all the way through once! Then I like to play  big first position E minor, G and E chords to triple check by EAR.
And, I really LOVE the TC Electronic Polytune clip tuner. They are extremely accurate and stable. Especially good on a 12. 

Always let your pick or thumb rest against the adjacent string to mute it and make the tuners job easier.

And, whether your axe stays in tune will depend, as always, on a stable RH of about 45% either in the case or on the wall.

Edward, I suspect you do NOT live in a cold area with the heater or wood fire going all winter, or a super humid climate, either. Both will require careful humidity monitoring...

I play harmonicas in the rack, and it is glaringly apparent when the guitar is not at A440!  Often it will be in tune with itself (relative tune) but not at Concert pitch. Sigh. Fortunately, the electronic tuner is our little friend!

FWIW, I have been playing 12 string Taylors since 1996 or so and have had and sold so many I have lost count.  5 LKSMs alone over the decades... currently really loving my 12X12 2016 552!

Hope all this helps, and have FUN

Salud

Paul

[Edward]

Hey Paul,

Yessir, that's the reason I put the reference to RH with regard to tuning stability.  You are correct that in SoCal I do not experience wild swings in RH.  But what swings we do have hear seasonally, I mitigate with a room humidifier, and of course is monitored by a wall hygrometer.  The point I was "trying" to make (clearly not that well on my part) was that 12string guits ought not be less tuning stable than a 6er, provided that the RH and temps don't go through wild swings.  Normal fluctuations are, er, normal; but the extremes are what one ought to address, regardless of a 12 or 6.  And it is the "those darned 12s and their finicky tuning" sentiment that I was largely reacting to

Edward

[donlyn]

Hey Edward, I think you may have a great situation with tuning.

I live in New England, where as the saying goes, if you don't like the weather, wait a minute.

Over the past couple of weeks my outdoor temp / indoor RH went from 15 degrees / 17% to 40 degrees / 33% with a high bump of 72 degrees /39% just last Thursday. Right now (Sunday), after a wind driven snow squall, it is 28 degrees / 23% RH with an average wind chill factor (35 mph wind plus gusts) pushing that 28 degrees down to 13 degrees, and a potential single digit overnight temp forecast. * Living in a old wooden house with not so great insulation, the lower temps kick up the dryness due to radiator heating system working harder. And the thermostat is set to a constant 62 degrees.

OK, enough weather. Bottom line is there is little stability to the weather here. Net effect on guitars (which live in their cases year round, and in winter with Oasis humidifiers and hygrometers) is that while the guitars do maintain their tuning overall, for each guitar that is a relative tuning with itself, and I cannot count on the tuning being 'standard' across the board. This does not matter much as long as I am just playing without other people / instruments. So while there are seasonal weather swings, there can also be daily and weekly ones too. As Paul mentioned, a couple of cowboy strums will tell me if I really need to check the tuning.

So I am happy when my instruments do stay in relative tuning, and I have few complaints since I have long ago reconciled to the bit of extra work humidifying them and keeping them in tune when needed. Best I can do. So if anyone else has this RH variability, don't give up hope.

* Edit > 3/15/21: Actual wind chill at 1 degree at 6:30 AM this morning. Above text written last night. More dry heat.
 
Don

[donlyn]

Hey Paul,

About the "Always let your pick or thumb rest against the adjacent string to mute it and make the tuners job easier."

I get a bit finer, in that I fingerpick all my instruments using my nails as picks. My right (picking hand) thumbnail, which is a tad longer than the 1/16" on my index, middle, and ring fingernails, allows me to pick out individual strings real easy for tuning. I start with the primary bass E string and then tune each of the primary strings in turn, then followed by the octave strings in the same order starting with the bass E octave string. At least it makes me feel like I'm trying to spread out any changes in tension that may occur as I go along. Can mute when needed with my palm and re-pluck.

I do not however try to play individual strings within a course while playing a song. 

Oh and commiserations on not only having to tune to standard for the harmonica, but also for using the rack. Never could get the hang of one.

Also I noticed "... currently really loving my 12X12 2016 552!"
Is that '16 an X-braced one with a cedar over mahogany body? I almost bought one a few years ago, but the opportunity was lost when I bought my 458e-R spruce over rosewood Grand Orchestra instead. No regrets; I do remember trying one out and liking it a lot. But the big body sound won me over. Do you tune it standard, or down a semitone or two?

Don

[donlyn]

I've been playing Pipeline for decades, but on various and sundry electric 6's, even on my T5z more than once.  It never occurred to me to try it on a 12str electric.  You've given me something to tack a crack at!   

Hey KM,

Just so you know, I fingerpick all my instruments, which can make things harder or easier along the way. I play that in G out of the E-minor position. this leads to some difficulties with the opening e-6 b-5 g-6 b-5 rhythm, which I solve using my left pinkie to fret the 'g' on the sixth string and alternate my thumb and index after an initial slowish thumbnail upstroke over the E-minor open chord. So if you happen to fingerpick, that may be of some help. Or maybe I'm just crazy. Or both. And I play this on an acoustic 12, not electric, but that could be really cool too.

Enjoy,
Don

[Edward]

Hey Edward, I think you may have a great situation with tuning.
...I live in New England, where as the saying goes, if you don't like the weather, wait a minute....
So I am happy when my instruments do stay in relative tuning, and I have few complaints since I have long ago reconciled to the bit of extra work humidifying them and keeping them in tune when needed. Best I can do. So if anyone else has this RH variability, don't give up hope..
 Don

Indeed sir!

Edward