ES2 Chirps and Squeaks Exposed While Live Streaming

[guitarsrsoawesome]

I almost feign to write this post, especially since I haven't posted or even visited the forum since 2016, though I participated a pretty good bit prior to that. 

Over the years when I've recorded with my late 2013 Taylor 514ce ES2 (hog/cedar) I've always used two condenser mics to get that natural tone, and when I've played live I couldn't really hear the pick/chirpy noises others have complained about due to other instruments, or room noise, or my singing, or the sound of the guitar at my waist covered it up. 

But since I've started trying to record videos using a looper and/or livestreaming, I've discovered on playback just how intrusive the pick noise and finger squeaks could be playing through the ES2.

So I called Taylor, who, after I told them I had experimented with adjusting the piezos with an allen wrench to no avail, recommended I bump down the piezo sensors 1/32nd of an inch as well.

I did so, and the chirpy noises remained (particularly through pick/fingernail noise or left hand sliding, especially on the G string).  This occurred all the way until I backed off the piezos so much that there was very little signal at all.

So I called Taylor again and they said some people changed their preamp from the ES2 version to the ES-T, and because the ES-T preamp was less hot, this alleviated some of the noise.

So they kindly mailed one to me and I did the swap myself because I live 90 miles from the nearest certified luthier.  (It's a whole other story, but I actually had to make a tool to pull out the old preamp by grinding a notch out of a chisel.  If you've taken one out you know why I had to do that.  If you haven't and are curious, maybe I'll make another post/video about it.)

At any rate, while the pick noise is less, it's still chirpy and annoying.  I have a k&k in my gs-mini (and my martin 000-17sm) and the gs-mini sounds WAY BETTER plugged in than my expensive 514ce with ES2, at least from the perspective of it actually makes music rather than the extraneous chirps and clicks the ES2 makes.

I am very frustrated by this and am possibly about to take the plunge and pull the ES system out altogether from the 514 and put in a K&K.  I know a lot of people would say just sell it and get another Taylor or other brand without a pickup and start from there, but in the past I have felt the resale on Taylors that have been gigged with the resulting love dents/marks is quite low, and not to mention, I love this guitar.  It's the old problem of, "what could I get for the price I sell it for that comes any where near it's tone, playability and quality?" 

The neck and feel of the fingerboard and the sound unplugged is unmatched for me.  (Heck, aside from the squeaks and chirps, the ES2 is amazing.)  When I originally bought it we compared it acoustically to every other Taylor in the store and it just destroyed everything tone wise including 8 and 914's.  So this particular 514 (hog/cedar) was and is just really special.  I've also played the new V bracing 514 and for some reason I don't get it.  I guess some of the overtones I like from the old Taylors are gone and I'm just used to that old tone.  The new ones sound almost synthetic and unreal to me.  Again, just not used to it I'm sure.

I guess I'm posting my experience to see if anyone else has any recommendations.  Should I try to experiment with backing off the mid (d and g string) piezo more or should I just throw in the towel and go to the tried and true k&k?  I'm leaning toward the latter, but if any one else has suggestions about how I can keep the ES2 system and get rid of the squeaks and chirps I am all ears (as long as you don't squeak or chirp in your response  ).

[Strumming Fool]

Perhaps I'm biased, but I've never been a fan of the ES2 (I love the ES1.3), so I would take it out and go with the after market pickup of your choice. You can plug the ES holes if you wish. Here's a sample product link:

https://shawwoodshop.com/products/expression-system-retro-kit-taylor-acoustic-guitars

I know how the ES2 can ruin a "keeper" guitar experience, so I wish you the best with your solution.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Thanks so much for that link, Stumming Fool!  Cheaper than the Truplug by quite a bit and more beautiful to boot.

I actually like the ES2 a lot aside from the chirps and squeaks, very robust, but perhaps that's why it's overly sensitive to picks and finger slides.  At any rate, I think I'm going to go with your suggestion.  I may even up my game and get the k&k with added microphone...not sure yet. 

My favorite pickup I ever had was in my 2000 614ce (maple/spruce with the fishman barn door with which you could mix the ust with the mic.  Still may be the best way to do it.  The system in the Matons (Tommy Emmanuel's brand) has that and they sound ridiculous.  I tried another Australian guitar with that as well, a Cole I think, and it too sounded ridiculous plugged in as well.  But both of those brands seem lacking unplugged which makes me wonder if the best sounding plugged in acoustics are that way because they're a little dead acoustically.  Oh well, a thought for another post.  Take care, and thanks again!

[Marty C]

Have you looked into this?

https://www.bluestarmusic.com/Mi-Si-ALIGN-XT-Battery-Free-Active-Preamp-with-LR-Baggs-Element-Pickup-for-Taylor-Guitars_p_2478.html

I saw another post here about it. 

[PaulWood]

I am with you on ES2 - it has totally ruined my 2006 614ce - had ES2 fitted to replace the (brilliant sounding) ES1 (AA batteries) because I was (incorrectly) told I couldn't have ES1.3.

I can't bear to play the guitar plugged in now because of the extraneous noises - Taylor sent a new pre amp (gratis) for which I am very grateful, but it made little difference.

I have a very light picking style, so I'm guessing that means the overall output sound is more dominated by the finger contact sounds you have described - it's horrible!

The guitar has not been out of it's case for over a year and that's a real waste IMHO.

Having spent £500 on having ES2 fitted, it's hard to think about spending more money to put it right. Having said that, it may be the only option. But how can I know that a K&K would be better and not just throwing good money after bad?

[Edward]

Sidenote about finger squeak:  much can be mitigated by string choice, technique, a lube, and EQ.

1. String choice: any uncoated string set will be the loudest; Elixir nanowebs are quieter, with polyweb quieter still.  Clearly this comes rife with tonal changes, but it's a significant point worth mentioning, especially since lots of folks do like uncoated strings for the tone they bring.

2. Technique: no, I don't want to say "operator error" as much as I come to say "finger the notes" differently; clamp and release with an ear toward minimizing that noise.  Like anything new, it takes some experimenting and time, but much of that sqeak can be mitigated.

3. I would never use a fingerboard spray (like some recommend fingerease) as I personally don't want any gunk of any kind on my boards.  But I have "XLR8" (I think it's a Dunlop product, Planet Waves? ...can't remember but you can look it up), and it's great.  I don't use it regularly at all, but if on stage on a humid and/or hot days where the neck will feel sticky, I take the applicator and simply slide it up/down the strings a couple of swipes and I'm golden.  It is slick so don't put too much, but the nice thing is since it's a solid applicator (like a shoe polish sponge) it's really easy to go as light as you personally want to get the job done.

4. EQ: if running through a board or DI with a tone stack, the "presence" knob (or any frequency north of 8k) will attenuate some if not much of that finger squawk.  You may have to compensate with a "treble" adjustment" but some experimentation there will reap rewards.

Edward

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Hey Guys! Thanks so much for the responses.  I've taken the plunge and ordered the wooden plugs from the company strumming fool suggested and I'm about to get another k&k pure mini as I have been satisfied with it's performance in the other guitars.  They're not perfect, but they're the best pickup for the money hands down that I've heard.  I can also continue to use the k&k pre-amp/d.i. that I already have, so that saves money as well.

Edward, I like all of your suggestions for sure.  I do use nano-web PB 12's and have used poly in the past because they do squeak even less.

And I totally agree about being careful when changing bar chords especially because it's easy to just slide across the g and d string as you switch (particularly when the a string is the root note).  I remedied all of that, but the problem is that some of my tunes I'm actually doing slide notes on the g and d strings on purpose (instead of a bend you'd might do on an electric) and this destroys my ability to play those songs without annoying the listener beyond measure.  It's like scraping a chisel across a chalk board on the ES-2, no problem on the k&k.  I remember some of that string saving stuff you're talking about too, that would be a good solution as well, but man o man, what a bunch of hoops to jump through to try to resolve it, so just going to make the switch.  Again, I love the bold sound of the ES-2, especially on fingerstyle, but as Paul said, the chirps of the fingernail brushing over the g string overtake the music, and that's just unacceptable.  I'm sad about it, again, because the music that comes from the ES2 is great, just not the chirps, squeaks, etc. 

Thanks again guys for commenting.  Marty, that battery-less preamp replacement looks like an amazing idea!  The k&k is passive too, so I'm glad to be getting that for the same reason.

[Tomm Williams]

I installed the MiSi Align XT in both my 2009 Taylor’s that had the 1.3 as the tone controls went bad in both. I’m also another person who loves how they play but the electronics........eh. To my ear the MiSi is a step forward in tone but probably not at the level of KK. However for the price ($150) and it utilizes the same control knob holes, it’s a winner and and improvement over the factory system IMO. Plus the system charges in 60 seconds and will last around 6 hrs.

[southbeck]

Tc Bodyrez works really well with the es2 in my opinion. It tames just the right mid frequencies that are harsh.

[Marty C]

Southbeck, how much of the Bodyrez are you using on the dial?  I assume you are talking the the single pedal or are you talking about the Play Acoustic?. 

[southbeck]

Yes I have only the single mini pedal. I just blend it in a bit. Like using an eq almost. It scoopes the mids and adds a bit of compression. Like around 11 o clock is sort of the sweet spot to my ears.

Don´t know if it´s true but I´ve read somewhere that Tc used a Taylor with es system it in when they made the pedal. On their videos they are using a Taylor at least. Seems to be a great match.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Hi all, just wanted to let you know that strumming fool's suggestion to use the Shaw Wood Shop wooden plugs worked out great.  I even installed the k&k myself and, coupled with their pre-amp, the k&k has given me the tone I was seeking.  There are still natural sounds when sliding your fingers across the wound strings, but they are not as irritating, so I'm really pleased.  Thanks for the suggestions and especially to strumming fool for recommending Shaw's.  I like the wood aspect better than the other plugs you'll find out there and Shaw's was almost 40% cheaper.

[guitarsrsoawesome]

Here are some photos of the Shaw Wood Shop plugs, as well as the chisel I modified to pull out the pre-amp, and then what the ES2 Sensors look like.

[Strumming Fool]

Looks great! Hope your plugged in sound is much better now.

Blessings!

[416ce]

Sorry but is there a sample or snippet of this culprit pickup noise you are referring to?
The ES1.3 version is pretty solid in response and really tamed when it comes to noise and picking attack.
Although I’ve heard stories in all versions of the ES system so far. I’m good with what I got right now.