Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: JdOzone on December 05, 2017, 06:33:46 AM
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I just got a 914ce SB and love it. Played it for days unplugged and was blown away..
Then I set up Bose L1s2 with B2 sub and T1Dmix. I also go through a voicelive extreme 3, so the options for eq are pretty limitless. The sound sucked qwaunky mids, Guitar top noise, pick noise, and a nasal phase problem...
I adjusted for 3 days, even bought a Radial Tonebone pz pre,,,,,,,
Yet nothing fixed it. I’ve been playing live for decades and I could not figure out why my Martin DCPA1 plugged and played so nicely and why this awesome 914cs sound sucked. If you rolled out mids it became thin etc...
I dove into all forums and tech talk I could find. I used to be a avid Ovation player until they sold company and I worked at NASA as a electronic eng, so I know the real history of piezios and how Mr. Kamen created them. He used 6 separate piezios. Everyone else could not do this due to patent. So most went with one piezio under saddle.
This got me thinking. The new approach by Taylor’s ES2 is a great idea 3 separate piezios onto back of bridge nut except. Since bridge nut is one piece there is crosstalk.... the original design of ovation used a bridge kind of like a start or Les Paul every string on its own bridge piece.
I found the low piezio still picks up the d and the high piezio still picks up the g. (I checked this by backing off mid piezio all the way... later to check my thoughts )
So I adjusted 914s piezios rotated mid counter clockwise 90* and adjusted low and high clockwise 45*. Since the new es2 internal pre is mid heavy this did the trick. This lowered the mids and boosted highs and lows a bit. Off setting the extra vibrations picked up from crosstalk.
I believe it is both a over amplification of mids but also a bit of a phase alignment thing between the crosstalk of the strings on the different piezios. After this adjustment my Guitar even plugged straight into bose with flat eq sounds perfect. It went from a nightmare sound with almost unusable b and g string honk to a perfect acoustic tone.
I then went back with equipment and even turned off the amp module for acoustic in voicelive 3e. I still use tonebone pz pre because it sounds awesome and gives you dedicated knobs for eq tweaks live, but not to shape sound just low cut high pass, and mid adjustments for picking or strumming songs...
I was getting scared after spending that kind of money on this Guitar and not getting a good plugged sound. I have read many people trying to explain the qwaunky sound they get and the extreme eqing they do to try and fix it. Don’t be afraid to adjust piezio settings that is the fix not extreme eq...
I hope this helps other to Not Panic..... and remember your Towel, only always...
Jd Ozone
Www.jdozone.com
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Very cool, Jd ...thanks for the detailed writeup, as well as the background!
Funny you mention Ovations as, long ago, I had a ca.70s Legend that was my only acoustic, and it sounded great in whatever PA I plugged into. There was always "that guy" that would be quick to dismiss (dare I say "poo poo") this guitar bc it was a "plastic" guit, but plugged in, that criticism was silenced in short order. Your background on indiv piezos certainly helps explain the balanced acoustic tone I got!
FWIW, since the inception of the ES2, I have been less than impressed, particularly since the bottom end (and mid-lows) sounded artificially boosted, far more than an acoustic guitar actually has! Then I read that Taylor revoiced their preamp for the ES2 ...so I hoped for better. I just recently picked up a 2016 with ES2 and, while sounding better than the last one I tried years ago if memory serves, still is not great. I will tinker with each piezo bank the next time I get some time with a PA. Big thanks for the tip!
Edward
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Edward,
You are so right I took so much crap from everyone about my ovations, until they heard me plugged in. They sounded thin unplugged but the offset sound holes and the piezio system let you dial in any eq setting with no feedback or problems even before Bose L systems.. They spoiled me for a live sound I expect to hear. That’s why the company has been passed around over last 8 years. They buy it and make a agreement to be able to use patent then sell to someone else.
The sad thing is Mr. Kaman did not get on cover of guitar or drum or music mags or articles when he died.. It’s a sin without him, Glen Cambel, and Jerry Reed, we would all still be standing still in front of a mic with terrible sound. Fiddle, guitar, piano, Also electronic drums are completely adapted piezio technology.
Kaman industries not only for us to the moon, but Mr Kaman was a guitar enthusiast. Glen Cambel went to him for his tv show so he would not have to stand still like HeHaw did.. Jerry reed had a luthier trying piezio and then they all worked together.. Music history that no one talks about. We all owe Mr. Kaman a place in Music history..
About the piezio adjustment, I truly believe it is the crosstalk between piezios Taylor should try a 3 piece bridge nut.. If you have ever dialed in electronic drums you learn what havoc crosstalk can cause.... lower mid tighten bass and treble and things clean up nicely. If I hey deserve toned a nut with a spacer between A&D. And G&B their system may become the best idea.
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JD,
Thanks for posting. Taylor’s cutsheet on the ES2 system offers fairly straightforward advice on adjusting the piezo’s that makes sense but your real world experience is even better.
I have four 12 fret Taylors with ES2; my 2014 812, my 2017 K22, my 2016 562, and my newest 714. My first Taylor (an 814) had ES1.3 and what I noticed about ES2 (first with my 812) was that it seemed “hotter” (i.e. more output if that is the right term). But I’ve also noticed the output/responsiveness of the system is different on all of my guitars and I’ve noted a “quack” kind of tone at times. I think it is worth sitting down with each guitar and making slight adjustments to the piezos to try to shape the sound to what sounds best and your experience gives me more confidence to try that.
I use K&K passive pickups in my Collings and my Robinson. What I’ve noticed with ES2 in my plugged in playing at home is the “hotter” response I noted above but I seem to get a cleaner (more to come) and balanced tone from the guitars with the K&K pickups. The balance might be addressed by tweaking the piezo’s on the ES2 guitars. The clean I refer to is that with all the ES2 guitars, I am always dealing with a low level hum in the background that is not present when I play plugged in with the K&K equipped guitars. I think the ES2 is picking up noise from other electronics and I try to unplug and turn off anything in the room not being used but I seem to never be able to fully get rid of it. My cables are not balanced so I wonder if going to a balanced cable will get rid of the background hum (again, not bad but there).
For playing plugged in at home, I go straight from the guitars to a Fishman Loudbox Mini via a standard TRS cable. For K&K guitars, I use the amp’s tone controls to shape the sound. With the Taylor Guitars, I have the extra EQ with the ES2 which seems redundant for high and low and gain/volume. But I note that a lot of players use a DI/pre-amp box between the guitar and the amp. I’ve been considering trying one but wonder if there is really any benefit.
For recording I use the same setup but run an XLR cable from the XLR output on the Loudbox to an XLR input on a Zoom H5. I have to setup on the H5 for that XLR input to be a mono signal. It gives me a decent clean home recording that I can share with others but it is a mono recording which sounds kind of flat. What I like about this setup is that I get minimal to no background noise while recording.
Sorry for getting a bit off track but good discussion to compare notes on.
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As a followup to my post above, I spoke to Taylor customer service and they told me that with an active system like ES2, it is normal to get a small amount of background hum that you should only hear when you are not playing. I would venture a guess that in a pro level live production or studio recording scenario, a good sound engineer can easily remove what I hear with software or a mixing board.
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I've also noticed this, if a pair of strings are sounding strange then try adjusting the adjacent screws. There definitely seems to be some phase interaction between pickup elements.
Craig
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Ok a buddy brought over his guitar with ES2 and I used my oscope and probes to actually check alignment on different piezios. You would be surprised at how much bleedover there is and the phase off alignment. I truly believe this causes the weird sounds sometimes from mids.
I am actually going to buy a new bridge piece. I am then going to cut it between A&D and G&B. I’m then going to cut to pieces of cork to put between them to keep nut in place and isolate between pieces... This may be a easy well after figured out way of isolating piezios.
The other thing I found is the es2 may I am not sure be wired where bass knob and high knob turn up those individuals piezios. If so that’s why it is harder to dial in sounds because with cross talk you are no longer just dialing up individual freq it also boost or cuts the crosstalk and out of phase signals...
My fix I’m going to try will not hurt my Guitar it’s a simple bridge nut replacement I’ll still have the original to put back in.. But if this works it could make the es2 system the best system around.
I’m excited to try.... I will keep people posted....
Maybe there are some others better at nut work that could try this also. The more we look into it the more I believe we could make it even better.. Good luck
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OK Jd, now this is getting really interesting!!!
I recall a guy I played with who had the "ghost" setup on his Tele, individual piezo sensors for each string saddle. Of course, this was all to drive his synth module (all Midi, natch), but the other benefit is being able to isolate each individual string's output and offer the user the ability to balance and tailor said output. What you propose fascinates me, if only because it appears as such a simple and intuitive way to address a problem, yet no one has applied it to acoustics (well, except Herr Kaman, of course). And if this pans out, what an elegantly simple DIY solution! I am eagerly awaiting your results, sir!!! :)
Edward
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The ES2 has been a bit of a frustration to me. My last Taylor purchase ( 414ce-R) had the ES-T pre-amp in it with the ES2. While this sounded great at home or in low volume venues, it lacked the punch needed in loud venues. I ended up swapping out the pre-amp for the ES2 pre-amp. This gave me the punch but did not sound as good. I also found my 214 sounding better at really loud bars than the 414. Long story short, I ended up going the way of Doyle Dykes. I am now playing a Godin hybrid for live performances with my 214 as a backup or used for softer songs in quieter venues. My 414 has been retired to my house only. I love my Taylors guitars but not really thrilled with the ES2. My playing style really needs both an electric and an acoustic sound or having both at the same time.
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so as i barely put the key to the set screws....all 3 pickups immediately sunk into the recess approx a 1/4 of an inch...Im assuming the fact that I can reach inside and move the conglomeration by hand in and out by a 1/4" (or more) is not good?..... xxxx plus for this guitar......man I wish I would have went "all natural"..
$, profanity, per forum rules.
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Ok I got a suitable bridge piece for a experiment, I’m going to cut it this weekend. Any ideas on divider material would be appreciated. I’ve thought about trying cork and even filling gaps in place with fish tank 100%silicon, let harden won’t hurt finish or gear, but worry about it getting in piezio cavity. So thought about making a nut slot on wood same size and put together in it, then move to guitar... I really think that’s why every time you see multiple piezio systems they are separated bridge nuts.. The ones without separation always have one long thin pizeo. I Bella eve through separate amps and cross bleed it causes the kwanky sounding high mid andbout of phase A D sound both caused by these cross over points..
I hope others will try and comment. As long as you loosen your pizeos before pulling bridge nut you are fine. Write down how many turns for a rough estimate. The engineers at Taylor told me personally that they tighten by hand listening. That leaves a lot to individual preference and hearing. I know their is a easy fix out there, I am a disabled war vet with to much time on my hands .... lol
Please post any info
Jd
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JD,
No need to fill in gaps at all, IMHO ...why add anything that could potentially transfer any vibrations, no matter how slight. This is a test mule: go bare bones and simply cut the saddle appropriately and mount up the pieces! :)
Edward
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Edward don’t you think the pieces could move, I guess not though with 2 strings on each piece.
I will cut them this weekend, I have a acoustic show Thursday, so just like new gear I won’t change it right before a show though... so I will do install after Thur. I’m practicing with the digitech trio plus band peddle and looper. Oh and wow on that pedal also... band in a box
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Tele saddles are two strings per barrel so no, I’d fully expect the two strings’ tension to be ample pressure to keep the saddle from moving.. Afterall, the saddle is also in a nice slot that prevents fire/aft tilting so I think it would be plenty secure. Post-gig review when you’re ready! :)
Edward
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My only worry is sweat. I had to use silicone around my martin dcpa1 saddle but because sweat was shorting out piezio. But if it works I could put bead of silicone around all pieces and gaps.. I play in south Florida sweat is a big issue.... Most shows are outdoors at tiki bars.
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Ok I’m behind schedule wanted to wait till after a couple of shows before attempting this... last nights show was a fight to get a good sound. It was cold out that always tights wood grain but still way to much work for a good sound. I will be cutting the new nut I ordered so original is still good.
I’m going to remove original writing down amount of turns to free it..
Then install 3 pieces of new nut after cut and tighten back amount..
Will be doing it this weekend. Let’s hope this fixes the phase twangy thing.
If not I just put back on original. I will take a few pics and start a new thread for it.
After paying around 5grand I should not have to fight so hard for good sound..
Never have I had problems like this from Martin or Ovation, I love my Taylor 914ce don’t get me wrong places easy etc sounds great unplugged. But very upset with my live sound and I use a Bose l1 s2 with b2 sub and t1 digital mixer. It’s not my equipment
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I know you haven’t been active in a while, but did you ever do it? I read the whole thing with anticipation and then ... <crickets>. Please don’t leave me hanging like this. It is worse than an episode of Lost.
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Sorry I thought I did post my findings. It works real good except to
Get it to work you have to replace the cut out parts somehow
It isolated very well but became a problem when changing strings ect.
Pieces fell out because they become lose long wise.
I found that 2 things worked best. Get three Allen wrenches and
Put them all in at once and play and adjust like a 3 band we.
Do this with your pa or amp eq flat. This will give you a closer to
what you want with no eq and leaves adjustments more available.
Second the new Taylor’s need a low freq roll off. I bought a tonebon piezo floor preamp.
This gave me different low freq roll off. And a great eq and preamp. .
The bass noise from top and handling was a big source of problems. A roll off around 80 to 100hz leaves town on low notes but gets rid of all the noise..
I hope this helps....
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I have a new 2019 714ce ... I appreciate all the information. However, I have to say that the whole idea that we even have to tweak, adjust, and consider workarounds because of quacking pickup systems and noise, means those systems stink.
I love my Taylor guitars, but I really do not like the ES2 system (or the ES1 either) due to the harsh upper mid tones. In all candor, the new 714ce sounds a lot like an old Gibson ES 125 I have with P-90. A nice acoustic should not sound like an old jazz guitar when plugged in. There's no brilliance, no shimmer, just upper-mid harsh and irritating tonality and excessive noisiness.
It's ridiculous to see the hype they put into these systems and they sound like this - I'm embarrassed for them.
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I have two Taylors with the ES1.3 system, and they serve me well. However, the last two Taylors I ordered, along with the one I just ordered are without the ES2 system. Not a big fan. Without the ES2, I'm able to use a bone saddle and install whatever after market system is available. I've been using the LR Baggs Lyric in all my other Taylors with great results, and I'll do the same with the one I just ordered.
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I've read all of this thread, and all I can say and point out is, how utterly ridiculous it is that we have to jump through all of these hoops to "fix" a system that Taylor (falsely?) advertises as the end all, do all, be all. Taylor makes such a quality guitar, then completely fall on their face with this Expression System charade. They really need to totally transform it and apologize to all of us! ES and ES2 completely suck, tone-wise, and Taylor needs to quit saying otherwise.
Has anyone tried this? https://www.goacousticaudio.com/products/es-replacement-system
It's pretty expensive, but I might do it and report back
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unexpected double post???
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Twang, I completely agree with you. Taylor should stick to what they do best -- making great guitars. Quit dabbling in electronics as a default just for a few extra bucks. It becomes a self-fulfilling retail prophesy - dealers only stock Taylor instruments with factory pickups, so that is what they sell the most of. If they wanted to do some basic prep like having a pre-drilled 1/2" end block hole and a 1/4" jack installed that would be fine. Then let the customer decide how (or if) to add a pickup system.
I've made no secret of preferring the ES1.3 system and completely avoiding ES2. The phrase "not ready for prime time" always comes to mind. Having an ES2 pickup is a total barrier for me ever buying another Taylor guitar with electronics. I don't need pickups any longer and only consider guitars without a pickup installed, either new or used. [I know you can order without electronics, but I prefer to play before pay. Even with Taylor's wonderfully consistent build quality, the wood in each specific guitar is an individual, so you never know what you are going to get tonally].
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Totally agree with you, Earl. I have 5 Taylors, only one of which has ES2 - and that one hasn't been out of the case for months and months - can't bear to plug it in! I'm pretty happy with ES1.3, which I have on 3 of my guitars, but I wouldn't say it's great - adequate would be a closer word to use!
Like others on this thread, I would like them all to sound as good as my old Ovation!
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Mehhhh. Everyone has their own preferences, expectations, and most of all tonal norm on which one judges all other tone. It is this norm that sets the foundation in one's mind as to what sounds good, and with acoustic pup systems, this "norm" is all over the map, but largely dominated by decades of piezo-based systems. That said, enjoy what you prefer!
As for me, personally and fwiw, I am no fan of the ES2, but neither do I hate it. I think it lacks in many places, but is still far superior to many piezo systems out there. Yes, it needs significant EQ to sound more "acoustic-y" through a PA. By contrast, the ES 1.3 needs the least adjustment (precious little, IME), so this stands as my favorite. That said, I can --and do-- EQ the ES2 to sound good live. Better than a K&K, better than piezo USTs, and better than my old ovation (which was good, mind you). Every acoustic pickup system --every one of them-- has its own traits, which includes tonal shortcomings.
I see the clear issue with any proprietary system. That Taylor still supports the 1.3 is good for me and many others, but that day will end, and I hope mine will still be rockin. Then the ES2 will fall by the wayside. There is wisdom in buying a non-ES Taylor; this I understand. But I am here now, and I want a pup system that works great live now and hopefully for the foreseeable future. This is why I love the ES1.3, and can still use the ES2 to good effect. If I'm still around when Taylor no longer supports these systems, I'll figure it out then. But for now, I'd take the ES2 over many other systems currently available. The exception is likely the Baggs Anthem, but there I digress :)
Edward
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i’m done with the es2, the last week my 814c without electronics has finally arrived, i’ve put a simple fishman matrix infinity pickup and I couldn’t be happier with the sound! i chosed fishman ‘cause is the same installed on my martins, i know it very well and while it isn’t the best system (surely the anthem is the most complete e realistic) it’s a pickup that works well in every situation, just like his counterpart lr baggs element.
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I rarely plug in so the ES system...or any other (I have a few guitars with built in electronics) is generally irrelevant to me. When I do plug in though I use a DI and some amp controls and it sounds just fine to me.
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with es2 I’ve encountered inconsistent results, on some guitars it works well, on some other the sound was barely usable, and getting worse if used with an external preamp in trying to tame the excessive high frequencies response. from here the choice to order a taylor without electronics.
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Hi, I'm an audio engineer and also an authorized repair tech. The ES2 is a wholly different pickup than under saddles like Martin uses. Bose systems such low end hard and are very sub heavy. The first step is always setting the guitar EQ controls flat and setting the volume all the way up on the guitar. On the channel of the Bose, set the EQ and volume flat, also set the master volume flat. Slowly increase input gain till you get good signal. This is how you should set up a channel for anything you're amplifying. Here's a helpful guide I made for starting out:https://vimeo.com/670970756
Another factor folks rarely look at is that the ES2 is far more reflective of the player - how they play, the pick weight, etc and the wood the guitar is made of. If you're strumming hard with a .60 you're going to get a lot of pick sound. Under saddle pickups have almost no dynamics. You can strum lightly, bash on them, use heavy picks or light picks and they sound the exact same. Here's a comparison: https://vimeo.com/664824903
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Hi Gabriel,
Great videos. On the comparison video https://vimeo.com/664824903 (4:08), I could never set my volume and bass/treble that high. In all my amps it is just too much gain. My pre -amps couldn't handle anything above 1/8 without clipping.
I have always had soundman tell me that I was giving them too much gain from my guitar. I generally have guitar volume at 1/4 with bass/treble at around 12:00 to give them a suitable level without blasting their preamps..
Interesting
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Hi Gabriel,
Great videos. On the comparison video https://vimeo.com/664824903 (4:08), I could never set my volume and bass/treble that high. In all my amps it is just too much gain. My pre -amps couldn't handle anything above 1/8 without clipping.
I have always had soundman tell me that I was giving them too much gain from my guitar. I generally have guitar volume at 1/4 with bass/treble at around 12:00 to give them a suitable level without blasting their preamps..
Interesting
This is the most recent version of the ES2 and I set it at 100% then back it off where I want it. This gives consistent signal to the sound board as a starting point when setting up a channel. With an amp your needs may differ but remember to treat the Main or Master volume as out put and the channel as Gain, because that's what they are.
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The ES2 is indeed puzzling. I've played a handful of guitars where I thought it sounded awful. About a year ago I got a GT all mahogany and maybe I just got lucky, but I really enjoy the plugged in sound. I even had a sound guy at church compliment the sound. And there are a handful of awful sounding plugged in guitars at my church. I'm just pretty picky when it comes to acoustics that are plugged in, period.
But even saying that, if I were to buy another Taylor, I might go a different route with the electronics. It's simply too hit and miss with the ES2, in my experience.