Author Topic: Removal of nut and bridge saddle "bone" strip for replacement or height adj  (Read 3925 times)

burnt

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Hi! My1st time; new Taylor owner... I hope the forum will tell me by email if I get any answers--

I found a nice Taylor Big Baby, used, & want it to be my main guitar for practice and recording.  I certainly don't expect any support from the mfr, with me buying used, but, it wouldn't be the 1st time if a guy died & left behind an ax.  I have always had acoustic guitars of lesser quality than this one, but long ago I ground down to perfection, a BRASS NUT and a BRASS bridge SADDLE, which I have always called the "Bone".  (You could actually make one from real bone if you wanted, & this is what the part was called by my older vendors in bygone times).  When strings are removed, I've always had little or no glue holding the Nut & Bone in place.  So when replacing with brass, I'd just lift off.  One time I encountered a little glue attaching a nut; I took some straight piece of metal or wood, I forget exactly, but anything straight would do.  Maybe I used a little screwdriver.  I used a chiseling action with a hammer  and the nut popped right off & I was back in business.  Excellent "brightness" or, you might say, the chords "ring" in a nice way.  Except various unrelated low - quality issues prompted me to get the Taylor. Such as intonation & buzzing...

Now I'd love to put my brass parts on the current guitar.; for "brightness"  and to slightly lower my action, which is not very impressive. (& what's up with that notch at the B string?) I must not be the only one who likes swapping in these brass parts, because if you search, you will see these brass parts on the market.  I think for maintenance & customization, manufacturers should only use a little spot of glue for use during assembly.  Once the guitar's strung, the tension won't let these parts go anywhere.

ACTION (string height above the frets)
It's common knowledge that with very few acoustics having height or left-right bridge adjustability, the height at least can be carefully lowered a little by grinding down the bone from underneath, then putting it back. Taylor DOES have good enough design for decent intonation (pitch linearity going up the neck).  The only solution for that, provided on electric instruments, is left - right - angle bridge adjustment.  As for height, most acoustics can be experimented on for slight lowering by extracting the bone strip, setting it aside and trying a new one most stores have for a couple bucks.  You grind off a  little at a time in successive approximations, from underneath. (Grinding wheels are a necessary toy for just about any kind of parts fabrication.)  And / or... play around with the truss rod, which I'm a little hesitant to do, and if I did, I admit it would be youtube to the rescue for a refresher course.

The Taylor saddle 'bone' & 'nut' are really glued in / on with extreme strength!  Is there a way to detach  them without hurting anything? I want to avoid damage but really want to try my brass parts.  I've seen quite a few instruments.  My favorite among the foreigners is Yamaha.  Imagine; a motorcycle company...  But I finally got what I wanted, which was to buy American.  This is the first time I've seen the 2 parts upon which the strings rest, glued in Real Real Hard.  Any non-destructive methods to remove so I can replace?  Hammer & chisel?  Boiling water? Hair dryer? Nain polish remover? Acupuncture?

Thank You to anybody who reads this. Happy New Year.

Strumming Fool

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Welcome burnt-

I'm  not much of a do it yourself guy, but I do my own truss rod adjustments on my Taylor's as needed (infrequently I might add), but with nut and saddle replacements, I have always deferred to professionals. I  know that many folks on this forum have changed their own saddles, so I will let them chime in. Hope you get the answer you need.
My Taylor Grand Auditoriums:

1997 Cujo14 - old growth cedar/black walnut
2014 K24e - master grade koa
2018 Custom GA - bear claw sitka spruce/mahogany
2019 614 - torrified sitka spruce/flamed maple
2020 714 - lutz spruce/rosewood

Craig

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. (& what's up with that notch at the B string?)

The notch on the B string is to ensure correct intonation, the B string has a different vibrating length to the G .

Craig
1978 Music Man Sabre II
1980's Charvel Model 6
2014 816ce First Edition
2014 714ce FLTD Sassafras
2014 K24ce with AA top and Gotoh 510 tuners
2016 GS Mini e Koa
2015 Custom GS Mun Ebony and Engelmann Spruce
2017 Avalon A2-20c
And an Eastman Mandolin!

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lbanks

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uh...the nut can be removed with TLC...the primary technique requires a small, controllable nylon head (or other impact damping material) hammer; but I hesitate to commit any farther...check out the luthier sites; e.g., http://frets.com/.

I can't leave w/o an aside...brass nut on an acoustic? a Taylor?  No condemnation, just astonishment; who knows though you might start a movement...I admit to trying brass bridge pines on a small body Oscar Schmidt...but that's about as  adventurous as I have contemplated.
Good luck with your venture, and let us know how it progresses....

burnt

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Hi. It's the original topic starter.  Thank you for the responses!  Update:

I think in the past I got the notion of the Brass saddle by trying to fix low - budget acoustic guitars that warped so bad the truss rod couldn't compensate for the whole top sheet of spruce bulging up, pulling.  Grinding some height off the saddle (the bone) from its bottom, to recover good action, made me consider other things you could do once you go to that degree of disassembly.  Such as trying different materials.

Success!   I kinda slept on it and came up with:
>Masking most of surrounding areas with some duct tape.
>Applying a Hot Compress of folded paper towel dipped in boiling water to the areas where I wanted to break the glue loose, and pouring on additional boiling water from the kettle spout just enough for saturation; wiping away excess drips.
>Letting guitar lie horizontal for an hour, with some pliers on the compresses to help hold them down.
>Bridge: Tapping up & down the saddle's length gently with a hammer on a flat-blade screwdriver, then gently wiggling the saddle back & forth (left/right) with flat-nose electrician pliers.  It finally broke loose from the glue in a nice clean break.  My brass replacement, which I had previously machined down for another instrument, fit in perfectly.  I think I got the brass saddle from someone on Amazon.
>Nut: placed the shaft of a screwdriver parallel against the nut, approaching from the neck / fret board.  Tapped; it popped off.

On both ends, the hot wet saturation definitely made the job possible by making Taylor's very strong glue give up some of its structural integrity.  I'll now have a routine re-assembly and put on new strings and try & optimize the truss rod adj (it's a 1/4" socket).  After that, I'll report back to tell you how it plays & sounds.

In consulting a couple more general repair forums, someone pointed out that a brass nut probably only makes a difference on Open notes, or chords containing open notes.  I guess that would be true; so the bridge saddle material has a lot more potential to influence sound than the nut... (while also influencing fretboard action if you choose to manipulate its height).

I hope my rework -while escaping harm-  can encourage others in their upgrade experiments.  Now, when it comes to fixing the car -- I'll change the oil, but outsource the rest  :-)   ...  Like forum member Strumming Fool, who'll adjust the truss rod but hire out other work. 

***INTERESTING FUTURE PROJECT: The all natural whole foods acoustic guitar~~~
Lost in the fog of time & memory is, who first told me the name "bone" for the bridge saddle strip of hard material.  I intend one day to grind down a REAL bone to try on 1 of my semi-junk acoustic guitars.  Squirrels in the back yard left a length of animal bone out there, with their hundreds of little teeth-sharpening marks in it.  I saved it because it looks perfect to fabricate a REAL "bone" - bridge saddle.  Probably long before steel or phosphor bronze strings, the first guitars used "animal gut" for strings and real animal bones for bridges and neck-to- head nut.  Or perhaps some real "nut shell".  Real "catgut" strings are still available, online.  I seem to recall they were made in Italy from shreds of sheep's intestines.  Maybe I should rebuild 1 of my old acoustics with a real nut for the nut, a real bone for the bridge saddle and "catgut" strings for an ancient-style guitar.  Using a nice modern grinding wheel for parts fabrication. 

Minnesotaman

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I wouldn't pour boiling water on a Taylor or any other guitar. Nor household cleaner or Lemon Pledge or any of the other crazy things you have mentioned. LOLOL!

burnt

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Hey Minn. Man, I agree! but it was more of a hot moist compress very localized.  Worked out well, just used long enough to break loose the (PVC?) saddle bone.  I replaced the 'bone' w a brass one I had already ground down carefully for a previous guitar.  It fit!  I have had great luck w/ this guitar; if only my luck was as good in real life...

The NUT, however, was the other part of the set of 2 brass pcs.  It was too tall for the Big Baby, cause where it came from before, it was mounted in a recessed groove or slot.  On another forum elsewhere, someone smarter than me pointed out, a brass nut is only gonna make contact w/ an actual NOTE in the case of playing an OPEN string note.  What a good point!.. As soon as you press a fret, the nut's out of the picture; they're absolutely right.  I didn't feel like putting the brass nut to the grinding wheel - could have - but just reverted to Taylor's orig equip.  The SADDLE or what I call the Bone - that's another story.  It 'touches' EVERY note...

So, things going OK when I get ready to restring, & I notice the neck, with the strings off, ROCKS front to back/ left - right.  It's a bolt on neck like I never saw on an ACOUSTIC.  And the "bolts" are just 2 non-standard length phillips carpenters' sheet rock/drywall screws.  (drywall screw lengths increment in 1/4" up to 2", then it's 1/2" increments.  And these are 2 1/4"  Back to 5th grade geometry. I didnt expect Taylor to take me there!..  Neck was rockin back & forth because 2 points make a 2 dimensional line; it takes 3 or more points to make a plane.  Even when TIGHT, the 2 screw - mounting method rocked back & forth.  I didn't like that.    I felt inside.  Up towards the highest frets, there's still enough reinforced thickness for a 1 1/4 screw, countersunk (sinked?) like the originals.  I very carefully added 2 more screws. With the neck now stable, I randomly diddled with what felt like a possible good place for the truss rod.  (be more exact than me.  I got lucky).  Finally I restrung. DAddario Phos Br XL...  Perfect.  All my dreams came true - and I had to fudge with a design flaw!  The brass bridge gave me the brightness I was looking for.  Similar to Paul Simon's Martin on a 2003 Simon & Garfunkel reunion clip from David Letterman on youtube...It's the greatest acoustic I ever played, or at least, OWNED.  SO gorgeous, Great action (that was partly as I mentioned, where I 'lucked out' w th truss rod)  perfect intonation (pitch linearity)... just everything I ever wanted.   I respectfully differ on Lemon Pledge  (actually right now I'm usin up some PURE lemon oil that was given to me).  Here is the modification, before & after.

Thank you for joining me on this amazing journey.  I am living happily ever after!