Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF
Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: oldcountrysinger on February 24, 2014, 02:23:23 PM
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Hi, After trying about 200 OOO/OM guitars, 50% Martins the rest L'Arivve, Guild, Gibson, KYaira, Yamaha and lots of other including 3 Collings (the sound of which I really disliked, finding them thin and piercing) i only found 2 I really liked. A Martin OOO18GE which I thought sounded beautiful but unfortunately the thick V neck was a dealbreaker, and a Martin OM42 which was nice sounding but had a 'sticky' varnish on the neck which didn't make sliding up the fretboard easy. The rest, iconic guitars I'd heard so much about were a disappointment and sounded, to my ears worse than the '79 Guild D25 I took in to compare them to. I forgot about the whole thing.
Then I tried a Taylor 522e 14 fret, it felt lovely to play, like a much more refined version of the Yamaha APX I played for yeras as a pub country and western singer. Soundwise the taylor stood up equally to a 2013 model Martin OM21, a different sound but I probably preferred the Taylor, I preferred the sounds of the OOO18GE and the OM42 but they were much more expensive and had for me playability issues.
My question is do you think a Taylor 522 12 fret, with the possibly fuller sound, would be a good choice or should I hold out for the 'perfect' guitar and try out models such as Santa Cruz OM or OM/PW or OOO which I've heard so many good things about or boutique makes which seem hard to find/compare and difficult to resell if, Heaven forbid, you realise you've made a mistake.
I'm from England and there's only 1 shop in the country that sells Santa Cruz and they have very few in stock and to get there its a 500 mile round rail trip and walk the streets of central London, in other words quite a trouble.
I do want the 'guitar of a lifetime' thats easy to play and sounds good for my plectrum style of light strum whilst singing with added bass runs and playing a single note melody on the trebles whilst keeping strum going on the instrumental parts. The Guild D25 does this perfectly but its just too big! I'd love a great sounding guitar that feels like a comfortable extension of myself that I can play almost automatically leaving me to concentrate purely on the emotion in the song I'm singing, is the 522 12 fret the one?
I can tell theres a lot of real and unbiassed knowledge and experience on this forum it would be great to hear any advice people can offer
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It depends on how much you loved the playability and sound of the 522. The 522 12-fret is as close my perfect instrument as I think it's going to get. No acoustic has ever felt so physically perfectly fit to me. I originally bought it because I wanted a guitar that could be brought and played anywhere and knew that a mahogany top had overtones that sounded wonderful and uncluttered in a small body guitar. Whether standing or sitting on the floor, chair, the couch or on a stool, it rests wonderfully in my arms. It has a balanced, mellow, sweet, dark tone that can sound snappy and slightly rude when called upon.
The 522 12 fret is more comfortable and slightly warmer than the 522, so if that is what you're looking for IMO, that's the way to go.
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I always think you should try out as many guitars as is practical, since there's rarely a downside to too much research. But I will say that I played a 522 12-fret at my local shop, and I thought it was just stunning. If I didn't already have a wonderful 12-fret, I would have snapped it up.
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Shoot, why not consider something from your side of the pond like a Lowden or Fylde? Lowdens have voicing all their own, and are worthy of your consideration. Expect to pay considerably more than a Taylor.
I own a BTO Taylor which I really love, equivalent I suppose to a 912. But my Froggy Bottom (even smaller) outplays it. So, try lots others. BTW, at one point I tried a 12 year old Martin OM-21 for sale in a local shop; I thought it was a fabulous guitar and it sold for a really fair price.
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Shoot, why not consider something from your side of the pond like a Lowden or Fylde? Lowdens have voicing all their own, and are worthy of your consideration. Expect to pay considerably more than a Taylor.
I own a BTO Taylor which I really love, equivalent I suppose to a 912. But my Froggy Bottom (even smaller) outplays it. So, try lots others. BTW, at one point I tried a 12 year old Martin OM-21 for sale in a local shop; I thought it was a fabulous guitar and it sold for a really fair price.
Not sure it is quite fair to compare an Adi over Brazilian guitar to a sinker over EIR. The FB is a very pricey guitar not even vaguely close in price to the 12 fret Taylor. For that bank you could get a GC, GA, and GS sized Taylor.
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I am not one of those who sing the praises of 12th fret guitars. I had one and sent it down the road after a few months. I just never bonded with it. It just never felt comfortable. Now I know that is what everybody raves about, but for me that was not the case. I bought a 712ce(14th fret) and love it. It feels so much better.
2010 814ce LTD 12th fret.
(http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff366/mgap1/Taylor%20814ce%20fall%20Limited/EPSN1284.jpg) (http://s1232.photobucket.com/user/mgap1/media/Taylor%20814ce%20fall%20Limited/EPSN1284.jpg.html)
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Thanks Crazymilo and DennisG, I'll have to try out a 522 12 fret, your experience with them certainly seems a positive one.
Hi Jerseytuning, yes I'll try to try more Lowdens, I did play an f25 (I think) and though the neck and sound of that particular model was not right for me I colud definitely see the potential. And I played 2009 Martin OM 21 I really liked, sadly the front had a bow on it.
Thanks Wooglins, and sadly not too many FB's available in these parts!
Thanks mgap, I'll definitely make sure I could get along with the 12 fret configuration before buying one.
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Thanks mgap, I'll definitely make sure I could get along with the 12 fret configuration before buying one.
And not all 12-frets are created equal. I just feel more (but not egregiously so) constricted fretting on my left hand on my Taylor than on my Froggy, even though both have approximately the same scale length. And I have heard that the high E string on Taylors is closer to the edge of the fretboard than on many other manufacturer's guitars, leading to an occasional slip off while bending strings or fretting on the E. Don't get me wrong, I love my Taylor GC 12-fret.......
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I've had my 522 12-fret for a little while now.
http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=4648.0
I like it better than the Martin 000-28ec I've since sold. I'm playing mainly in church these days and mainly finger style and light strumming to accompany voice. I am absolutely taken with all aspects of the 522 and that feeling keeps growing.
I will say Santa Cruz makes an awesome 12-fret. I have a D12 that is incredible but it is bigger than the 522. If you get the chance to try one, I would.
I can't say enough good things about the 522 12-fret. I has it all ... comfort, tone, playability and volume. It is a marvel. I find it takes some time to get to know a guitar and I am enjoying the 522 more and more as time goes on.
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I haven't played a 522 12-fret, but I've played a custom all-mahogany 12-fret GC that was essentially the same guitar with differences in trim.
It was quite possibly the best-sounding Taylor I've ever played and were it not for the cocobolo binding which put it well out of my price range, I'd have had to explain a new guitar to my wife.
I've tried a couple Santa Cruz 1929 000 models and would probably take the Taylor, especially given the price difference. (I'd give the edge to the Santa Cruz models in the looks department but then again, I'm a sucker for the simple 15 series Martin look.)
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I can also chime on with praise for my Santa Cruz OOO, which is a 12-fret guitar, but with a 25.375 scale (not a short scale). You've got to go with what feels right to you.
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Thanks Jerseytuning, I'll bear the slipping off the E problem in mind, I can remember encountering it before on a Martin D28.
Thanks Cigarfan, I've found your very informative review of the 522 12 fret, it's really interesting to hear that your positive feeling for the guitar continues to grow.
Wow, praise indeed for the custom 522 12 fret if you'd take it over the Santa Cruz 1929 OOO model Ataylor, I think that model is in stock at a shop in London if I can hoss myself down there to try it....
Thanks Gary-N-LA, Yes, I'd love to try out some small bodied Santa Cruz guitars, I played a couple of dreadnoughts about 15 years ago, before I'd heard of their reputation, and was really impressed with their very full sound, they were probably the nicest sounding guitars, to me, that I'd ever played.
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I finally got to play a 522 12 fret, I loved the sound, (a little more expansive than the 14 fret model I tried), the way it balanced perfectly in all playing positions, and its appearance. Unfortunately the fretboard at the neck was just too wide for me, and I don't think I'd be able to get used to it - a real shame - if the neck had been like the one on a Martin oo-15 I tried a few days ago I'd have walked out of the shop with a brand new bundle under my arm.
A disappointment, but at least it shows the value of trying before you buy.
Thanks for all the advice you guys offered.
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I finally got to play a 522 12 fret, I loved the sound, (a little more expansive than the 14 fret model I tried), the way it balanced perfectly in all playing positions, and its appearance. Unfortunately the fretboard at the neck was just too wide for me, and I don't think I'd be able to get used to it - a real shame - if the neck had been like the one on a Martin oo-15 I tried a few days ago I'd have walked out of the shop with a brand new bundle under my arm.
A disappointment, but at least it shows the value of trying before you buy.
Thanks for all the advice you guys offered.
I believe that you can order the 522 with a 1 11/16th neck............
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Two of my favorite non-Taylors are the Bourgeois and Santa Cruz OMs. I just think that they are perfect instruments, and truly all-purpose. I personally like my Taylor GAs, but if I were looking for something smaller, I'd probably go the above route - and have a devilish time deciding which builder's product I liked more....
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Sometimes all purpose is a plus, sometimes not. One can pay an all purpose guitar that one might rate (out of 10) an 8.8 fingerstyle and 9.0 strummer, or one might play a model which is a 10.0 fingerstyle but a 6.2 strummer, or visa versa. Which one is more desirable? Very personal!
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I got my 522 12 fret back in February. It immediately became my favorite steel string guitar and keeps sounding more delicious everyday. I counted up the guitars I've had over the years and this is number 61 with reps from all the high end big boys and a few boutique builders. This Taylor 522 12 fret is one I'm definitely keeping. Of course it depends on how you play I guess. I play mostly finger style with bare fingers and a thumb pick and I find the tone to be rich, sweet and balanced when it's is played in this way. and is possesses a lovely sustain. It has the best treble I've ever heard on any of my guitars, past or present - thick and creamy. The bass is not explosive and booming, but I want it that way. Some folks like the thunder and this is probably not the guitar for them. I savor lyrical articulation and if you are like me, this is one scrumptious bauble.
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I got my 522 12 fret back in February. It immediately became my favorite steel string guitar and keeps sounding more delicious everyday. I counted up the guitars I've had over the years and this is number 61 with reps from all the high end big boys and a few boutique builders. This Taylor 522 12 fret is one I'm definitely keeping. Of course it depends on how you play I guess. I play mostly finger style with bare fingers and a thumb pick and I find the tone to be rich, sweet and balanced when it's is played in this way. and is possesses a lovely sustain. It has the best treble I've ever heard on any of my guitars, past or present - thick and creamy. The bass is not explosive and booming, but I want it that way. Some folks like the thunder and this is probably not the guitar for them. I savor lyrical articulation and if you are like me, this is one scrumptious bauble.
The only difference in our playing styles is that I don't use a thumb pick--I probably should, because I find my Taylor GC 12 fret slightly lacking in bass, especially when compared with my Vintage Martin and my Froggy.
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Sometimes all purpose is a plus, sometimes not. One can pay an all purpose guitar that one might rate (out of 10) an 8.8 fingerstyle and 9.0 strummer, or one might play a model which is a 10.0 fingerstyle but a 6.2 strummer, or visa versa. Which one is more desirable? Very personal!
After re-reading oldcountrysinger's original post, regarding his playing style, I would reiterate that a great OM like Santa Cruz or Bourgeois would fit the bill. Since he currently plays a Guild D25 that he happens to enjoy except for its size, perhaps my perennial favorite, the Taylor grand auditorium could also be a solution - same overall dimensions as that Guild, but with its narrower waist, it is more comfortable to play and more balanced in its tone. Just a thought...
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Sometimes all purpose is a plus, sometimes not. One can pay an all purpose guitar that one might rate (out of 10) an 8.8 fingerstyle and 9.0 strummer, or one might play a model which is a 10.0 fingerstyle but a 6.2 strummer, or visa versa. Which one is more desirable? Very personal!
After re-readinging oldcountrysinger's original post, regarding his playing style, I would reiterate that a great OM like Santa Cruz or Bourgeois would fit the bill. Since he currently plays a Guild D25 that he happens to enjoy except for its size, perhaps my perennial favorite, the Taylor grand auditorium could also be a solution - same overall dimensions as that Guild, but with its narrower waist, it is more comfortable to play and more balanced in its tone. Just a thought...
Yes, I agree this thread has undergone the "standard deviation". Based on his light strumming style your analysis is right on.
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Thanks mgap, I'll definitely make sure I could get along with the 12 fret configuration before buying one.
And not all 12-frets are created equal. I just feel more (but not egregiously so) constricted fretting on my left hand on my Taylor than on my Froggy, even though both have approximately the same scale length. And I have heard that the high E string on Taylors is closer to the edge of the fretboard than on many other manufacturer's guitars, leading to an occasional slip off while bending strings or fretting on the E. Don't get me wrong, I love my Taylor GC 12-fret.......
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Need to ask you about the OM-42. I own two and have not had the sticky neck experience. Was it a new guitar? Owning Taylors and Martin OM-42s objectively I think they both have great necks. The Martins feel wider and flatter and are very comfortable. The OM-42 is a light guitar and very resonant. It sounds different than a 21 or 28. Very lively. That said the 42 is not a 12 fret. I would have to look at the specs (bracing etc) but a 000 12 fret has a smaller body feel if you get the slope shoulder looking 12 fret. The 14 fret and 000 bodies look the same but have different bracing and sometimes different nut width and neck profile.
Have you tried a Jeff Tweedy? They are very nice.
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The 14 fret and 000 bodies look the same but have different bracing and sometimes different nut width and neck profile.
The Martin OM has a standard scale while the Martin 000 has a shorter scale, which to some can feel more comfortable due to the lower string tension. OOOs are nice as long as you can avoid that V neck (as featured on the 000-28EC). I still prefer the Santa Cruz and Bourgeois OMs overall.
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In the Martins I like the 0000 (M) size. they feature a low profile neck and feel very comfortable. It has a 16" bout but with a 4 1/8" depth it is very nice. It is a little less in cost than a OM-28. I have owned a couple of them now and unfortunately I have also sold them to buy another Taylor, but as far a Martins go it is a nice one.
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In the Martins I like the 0000 (M) size. they feature a low profile neck and feel very comfortable. It has a 16" bout but with a 4 1/8" depth it is very nice. It is a little less in cost than a OM-28. I have owned a couple of them now and unfortunately I have also sold them to buy another Taylor, but as far a Martins go it is a nice one.
I like those Martin 0000's as well. The wider top and thinner body seems to really work well. If it was not for the 1 11/16" nut width, I'd probably own one right now. That model with 1 3/4" would be the bomb!
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In the Martins I like the 0000 (M) size. they feature a low profile neck and feel very comfortable. It has a 16" bout but with a 4 1/8" depth it is very nice. It is a little less in cost than a OM-28. I have owned a couple of them now and unfortunately I have also sold them to buy another Taylor, but as far a Martins go it is a nice one.
I like those Martin 0000's as well. The wider top and thinner body seems to really work well. If it was not for the 1 11/16" nut width, I'd probably own one right now. That model with 1 3/4" would be the bomb!
Well, I can't argue that point. I agree. It is ok for the GS mini, on the other hand I got use to that neck right away every time I picked it up. I will get another M-36 someday.
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In the Martins I like the 0000 (M) size. they feature a low profile neck and feel very comfortable. It has a 16" bout but with a 4 1/8" depth it is very nice. It is a little less in cost than a OM-28. I have owned a couple of them now and unfortunately I have also sold them to buy another Taylor, but as far a Martins go it is a nice one.
I like those Martin 0000's as well. The wider top and thinner body seems to really work well. If it was not for the 1 11/16" nut width, I'd probably own one right now. That model with 1 3/4" would be the bomb!
Well, I can't argue that point. I agree. It is ok for the GS mini, on the other hand I got use to that neck right away every time I picked it up. I will get another M-36 someday.
I owned a custom M-38 years ago (They used to be called Ms before they became 0000s). It was a sweet guitar (which is saying a lot since I'm generally not a rosewood fan), but I had to have the top replaced twice due to it separating at the seam. I sold it before it could split again. I find Taylor's GA to be a more refined version of that model.
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I owned a custom M-38 years ago (They used to be called Ms before they became 0000s). It was a sweet guitar (which is saying a lot since I'm generally not a rosewood fan), but I had to have the top replaced twice due to it separating at the seam. I sold it before it could split again. I find Taylor's GA to be a more refined version of that model.
I had a Martin 000-16 cut-away back in the 80's . . . when they had oval sound holes. The top split at the seam despite my humidified room. Martin fixed it, but not well. They didn't clean the joint before gluing and clamping so there was a permanent ugly, dark glue line. I realize this is another thread diversion, but I had to comment on the seam thing. I have to say it was a great sounding guitar though.
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I finally got to play a 522 12 fret, I loved the sound, (a little more expansive than the 14 fret model I tried), the way it balanced perfectly in all playing positions, and its appearance. Unfortunately the fretboard at the neck was just too wide for me, and I don't think I'd be able to get used to it - a real shame - if the neck had been like the one on a Martin oo-15 I tried a few days ago I'd have walked out of the shop with a brand new bundle under my arm.
A disappointment, but at least it shows the value of trying before you buy.
Thanks for all the advice you guys offered.
The Taylor 522 comes standard with a 1 3/4" nut,.. but can be ordered with a 1 11/16" nut for a $100 USD upcharge... So don't give up yet!
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I have a suggestion for you. Jon Garon of My Favorite Guitar in Florida orders custom 000-18GE Martins with the modified low oval - and they're only 2-1/8" at the 12th fret, 2-3/16 at the bridge. Narrow all the way up, the way you seem to like it. I think he has one more:
http://www.myfavoriteguitars.com/product.php?productid=17612&cat=13&page=1
I have no connection to the store. But it seems like this is as close to an 000-18GE as you can get but with the modern neck profile.
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Thank you very much for all the replies and enlightening comments, after much travelling and trying out I think I've found the guitar for me sound, comfort and playability wise in the form of a Santa Cruz OM.
The trouble is the saddle showing was slight, at approx 1/16" it had only about 1/3 of the saddle showing on most other guitars in the shop.
I didn't measure the action at the 12th fret but it was very low, easily the lowest of the ten or so high value guitars I played in the store (at a guess it was about 5/64" or 2mm) and it played like a dream all the way up the neck - it was the easiest to play guitar I've ever had my hands on.
The 'but' is I'm worried this guitar may need a neck reset soon, something I don't really want to have to go through - do you think I should take a chance on this guitar?
Positives
I prefer it to over 200 other OM/000 guitars I've tried.
The price is 5/8 the cost of a new one.
New ones are not available in my country.
I bought my 1979 Guild with only 1/32" of saddle showing (half that of the Santa Cruz!) fifteen years ago and it has never moved or needed any adjustment.
I keep guitars tuned in DGCFAD so the string tension in future would likely be much less than its had up to present.
The neck appears straight and true.
Negatives
The guitar is only 8 years old, if its lost this much saddle in that short time (although some may have been sacrificed to obtain the very low action) I would suspect the 'folding up' may continue and a neck reset could be imminent.
This guitar is expensive for me, costing more than my car! I'd hate to buy a dream that turned out to be an endless source of frustration.
I can't understand why someone would want to sell such a nice guitar unless they suspect imminent problems with it.
I'd be extremely grateful for any advice given, I'm hopefully going to the store next week in the company of a more experienced friend for another look and don't worry I'm not looking to blame anyone if I make the wrong decision! I suppose it all boils down to a balance of probabilities.
Regards
Stuart
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The trouble is the saddle showing was slight, at approx 1/16" it had only about 1/3 of the saddle showing on most other guitars in the shop.
Stuart, Because the Taylor bridge is straight and the saddle curved, it can appear slight at the ends. Personally it wouldn't scare me. In my experience the NT necks' tolerances are exceedingly precise and very stable with proper humidification. The action on my 522 12 fret is so very low, but there's not a buzz to be heard. If the action were up where Martin delivers their guitars the saddle would appear significantly taller. And I would venture a guess that with Taylor style action, a Martin would sound like a hive of bees.
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Stuart, I have not read the entire thread, but you have obviously done a huge amount of research. (I've been playing for 45 years, and cannot say that I've handled 200 total OOO or OM sized guitars in all that time. Impressive). After all that, the Santa Cruz OM seems to be "the one" for you. Having one that "speaks" to you is worth a lot.
You are right to be concerned - but not paranoid - about the low saddle. 1/16" of exposed saddle is fairly low. That may simply have been the way the previous owner had it set up, for super low action. Take a straightedge and sight along the plane of the frets. If the line hits in the upper third of the bridge (not the saddle) then the neck angle is probably OK. Best to get an opinion from a good repairman that you can trust, though. If you are getting a really good deal, then the cost and hassle of a neck reset is not insurmountable, as long as the guitar is priced accordingly. FYI, my custom shop J-40 Martin needed a neck reset after eight years, so it happens even with fine instruments.
[I can't understand why someone would want to sell such a nice guitar unless they suspect imminent problems with it].
People sell really nice guitars all the time without them being lemons, or with impending problems. Sometimes it just doesn't fit. For example, once I hit age 50, my left hand no longer liked 1-11/16" necks. As a result, I have sold all the Martins in favor of Taylors with 1-3/4" necks. Playing a Martin neck for 30 minutes leaves my hand aching for the rest of the day. But I can play any of my Taylors for hours without any pain. A little dimension change and a different shape makes all the difference.
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Stuart,
I own a 522e 12 fret and an 814ce. The biggest difference between the two is that the tonal response of the 522e is very even/balanced which means you get a lot of mid range response that could be even more enhanced by the 12 fret scale. This is what you get with the all mahogany construction. It works well for solo fingerstyle, blues, country, or a musical piece where you want that even response.
You stated you want the guitar to do well light strumming and for vocal accompaniment. You should consider the 512e 12 fret (cedar/mahogany). It probably fits your needs better. Anytime I play along with a song with vocals, the 814 (spruce/rosewood) seems better than the 522. If I want the guitar's voice to jump out, the 522 is the better tool. There's certainly overlap for both dependent on strings, pick choice if applicable, and technique. I'd consider a 412 (spruce/ovangkol) or 512 series based on what you describe.
Good Luck,
Bob
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People sell really nice guitars all the time without them being lemons, or with impending problems. Sometimes it just doesn't fit. For example, once I hit age 50, my left hand no longer liked 1-11/16" necks. As a result, I have sold all the Martins in favor of Taylors with 1-3/4" necks. Playing a Martin neck for 30 minutes leaves my hand aching for the rest of the day. But I can play any of my Taylors for hours without any pain. A little dimension change and a different shape makes all the difference.
I agree with Earl. I sold a luscious late 60's D-18 because as good as it sounded, the 1 11/16" was not comfortable for my mostly finger style playing.
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Stuart-
As I said in an earlier response to this thread, Santa Cruz or Bourgeois would be my choice if I wanted an OM. Santa Cruz OMs are quite elegant and guitars for a lifetime. That said, do you have a trusted luthier who could look at the guitar and give an honest appraisal of what work might be needed? It sounds as if it would be worth the extra "homework" to confirm whether this guitar could be your lifetime friend.
I wish you the best - perhaps you are almost at the end of your search!
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Thanks Earl and Strumming Fool, I took your advice and returned to the store with a friend who has 40 years playing experience and has done some guitar repair training, his thoughts were 'lovely guitar but I'd be concerned about that soundboard bulge' so with that I was able to put that particular example out of my mind, and hopefully keep looking for a similar model.
Thanks Sprintbob I'll try to check out a Taylor 512.
I'm sure you're right fretted and Earl about people selling nice guitars for all sorts of reasons, I think my Guild is a lovely guitar but at least two people have sold it previously and its not perfect for me either, if it was I wouldn't still be searching now!