Been out looking at 12-strings

[kleolotke]

Hey everybody.  I've been playing for about 50 years and my most recent 12 string - a really nice Martin solid Mahogany - suffered a fatal accident - at least one I didn't want to spend about 2K getting fixed.  Put me back on the road of visiting Guitar Stores and looking for a replacement.  I've owned and played a lot of instruments over the years - from Yamahas to Stellas  to Martins to Guilds,etc., etc.  I play and write every day, 2 - 5 hours.  After 'losing' my best friend of over 20 years I thought to look at a Taylor.  Was actually looking for a 355 or 555 when I came across a 655.  Best acoustic guitar I have ever heard through an amp.  Opinions on other Taylor 12's.  Don't need a cutaway body.

[timfitz63]

Welcome!  Sorry to hear about your Martin's demise.  Not trying to talk you out of a Taylor, but if your repair estimate is accurate, you'll probably spend about the same to get even a used Taylor 12-string.  But I understand the desire to have something that wasn't patched back together and may not quite be the same again...

I'm presuming your Martin 12-string was a Dreadnought body style?  Not quite as many options available there in the Taylor line (FYI, the Taylor Dreadnought model numbers all end with a "0").  The current-issue 360e (Mahogany top/Tasmanian Blackwood body) has me intrigued, but I've yet to cross paths with one in dealer stock in order to try it out.  The only other Dreadnought 12-string in the current Taylor line is the entry-level 150e, which is a laminate (Taylor now uses the word "layered") body; starting this year, the exterior veneer is Walnut, but it was previously Sapele.

On the used market, you might stumble across a Taylor Dreadnought 12-string, but they seem to be few and far between.  I know 'cause I've been keeping my ear to the ground for one.  I don't think Taylor made as many of them as they did their Jumbo (model numbers ending in "5") 12-strings, so your chances of finding a 12-stirng with the latter body style are comparatively greater on the used market.

About 3-4 years ago, Taylor replaced their Jumbo with their own body design called the Grand Orchestra (GO; model numbers ending in "8"); last year they introduced a couple of GO 12-string variants:  the 458e (Sitka Spruce top/Ovangkol body; I think there's also currently a 458e-R variant using a Rosewood body) and the 858e (Sitka Spruce top/East Indian Rosewood body).  What's the difference between the 458e-R and 858e if they've both got the same wood combination?  Two things:  the visual grade of the Rosewood, and the use of an older style of bracing -- which puts it at a lower price point.  If you like the Jumbo body, but would like to have a brand new guitar with warranty, check out the GO 12-strings.

Taylor's mainstay 12-string body is their Grand Symphony (GS; model numbers ending in "6"); this happens to be the 12-string body I like best in the Taylor line, and nearly every one of their series (each series being a different combination of tonewoods) offers one.  If you liked the 655 you played, you might find a 656 to sample to see whether it suits you as well.  The entire 600 Series was re-voiced (new bracing and the addition of a torrified top) a few years ago, so you might need to look for an older (pre-2014) model to really get an apples-to-apples tone comparison to the 655 you've already tried.  The Spruce/Mahogany 556 would also be a good one for you to check out, given your old Martin had a Mahogany body as well.  The new 500 Series (introduced last year) offers a Lutz Spruce top, which is quite nice; an older 556 would have either a Sitka Spruce -- or in some model years, a Engelmann Spruce -- top.

Taylor has also built some 12-strings along the way using their slightly smaller (but most popular) body, the Grand Auditorium (GA; model numbers ending in "4").  They seem to be less common than the GS bodies, but one is still offered in their current lineup:  the 254ce-DLX.  Again, this is more of a budget-conscious model, having a Sitka Spruce top but a laminated Rosewood body, and may not be quite what you're looking for.  But it's an option to consider.

Up to this point, all the guitars I've been suggesting are predicated mainly on the assumption that you are going to be strumming your 12-string.  The latest additions to the Taylor 12-string line are worthy of consideration if you'd rather finger-pick your 12-string:  the 552ce and the 562ce.  These are short-scale, 12-fret 12-string guitars built using Taylor's smallest body, the Grand Concert (GC; model numbers ending in "2"); the bodies are Mahogany, with Cedar or Mahogany tops, respectively.  They're really nice little 12-strings with a surprising amount of volume.

In the end, if you just want to go crazy and have something built to your own specifications, Taylor will custom build a guitar for you; the Jumbo body may even still be available through the Build To Order (BTO) program.  You'd need to consult with a Taylor dealer to find out just what options and tonewoods are currently available.  And be prepared to crack open your wallet...

[TaylorGirl]

Great post Tim. Very informative for those needing info on the Taylor line of 12-strings.

[kleolotke]

Hey guys,

I actually had a J12-15 Martin. Jumbo Body. Part of the 15 series, a group of 'low end' no frills instruments and in my case all Mahogany.  I set it up myself.  I ended up stringing it w/ D'addario Phosphor Bronze 12-54's tuned down two half steps.  Pull weights were within 3% of OEM.  I play in drop D - capo 2nd fret is Concert Pitch.  Just that much easier to play.  And no capo gives it an amazing, low end bluesy feel.  Put in a Baggs undersaddle pickup.  Black nut, black tuners, black bridge - you get the idea.  Made 'em myself.  No, not the tuners.  Anyway that Guitar was like raising a Child - it brought me back to writing and playing and being back on Stage again. I never expected to have any other Guitar. SO - What next?  I actually thought about having a Custom Taylor built -  but I really can't wait that long.  And I've got at most 2 months before my Son unlends me his Martin.  The  current GC's sound nice but more uncomfortable for me to play.  I play sitting down.  Jumbo waist a nice fit.  And since my next purchase will, I hope, be my last - makes choosing hard.   The Taylor playability factor is for real.  I guess I'm looking for options for 1980's + Taylor 12's. 

[timfitz63]

Great post Tim. Very informative for those needing info on the Taylor line of 12-strings.

Thanks, Susie!

Hey guys,

I actually had a J12-15 Martin. Jumbo Body. Part of the 15 series, a group of 'low end' no frills instruments and in my case all Mahogany.  I set it up myself.  I ended up stringing it w/ D'addario Phosphor Bronze 12-54's tuned down two half steps.  Pull weights were within 3% of OEM.  I play in drop D - capo 2nd fret is Concert Pitch.  Just that much easier to play.  And no capo gives it an amazing, low end bluesy feel.  Put in a Baggs undersaddle pickup.  Black nut, black tuners, black bridge - you get the idea.  Made 'em myself.  No, not the tuners.  Anyway that Guitar was like raising a Child - it brought me back to writing and playing and being back on Stage again. I never expected to have any other Guitar. SO - What next?  I actually thought about having a Custom Taylor built -  but I really can't wait that long.  And I've got at most 2 months before my Son unlends me his Martin.  The  current GC's sound nice but more uncomfortable for me to play.  I play sitting down.  Jumbo waist a nice fit.  And since my next purchase will, I hope, be my last - makes choosing hard.   The Taylor playability factor is for real.  I guess I'm looking for options for 1980's + Taylor 12's.

Ah, OK.  Well, that narrows down the choices some.  A Taylor Jumbo like the 655 you're considering, or a GO 12-string will be the most direct analog for the Martin you had; those will probably have the most familiar feel when positioned in your lap.  If I'm not mistaken, the GO has a slightly wider waist than the old Taylor Jumbos, so that may be a guiding factor in your final decision.  Try one out and see what you think; not sure where you're located, but most Taylor dealers seem to stock at least one of the GO 12-strings.

If you're going to use alternate tunings, I'm probably not the best one to advise you about which Taylor model would give you the best results; but again, I'm thinking that Taylor's Jumbo models would likely be your best choice, followed by the GO.

Before you buy, I would still try out one of the GS 12-strings (either a 556 or 656); that body would be potentially the only other Taylor model that might give you the approximate physical feel of your old Martin J12.  And if you still want that all-mahogany body, perhaps you should consider a Taylor 566 -- if you can find one, that is...?

While I give it long odds on being the one you want, I'd still look for one of the pre-2016 360e SEB models to try out; although that model uses a different body style (Dreadnought), it has a Mahogany top and Sapele body -- which is pretty close to an all-Mahogany combination (the 2016+ models are Mahogany/Tasmanian Blackwood, as I mentioned above), and may provide you with a closer match to the tone you had from your J12-15.  And many dealers seem to have the 360e SEB as NOS -- which also means you might potentially make a very good deal on one of these leftovers -- if you like the model.

About the only other guitar that leaps to mind as an almost-direct replacement to your Martin is another Martin:  a quick web search seems to show available J12-15's are pretty scarce; but have you looked at the Martin CEO-8?

You could possibly get a Custom Taylor built within the span of the next couple of months -- if you acted soon.  Every day you wait is another day longer to get it built, if you follow my meaning.  But I can't say whether the Jumbo body is still available in the BTO program, so you may be channeled into a Custom GO-12 if you go that route.

Good luck!  Let us know where you wind up in 12-string land!

[donlyn]

Tim wrote,

A Taylor Jumbo like the 655 you're considering, or a GO 12-string will be the most direct analog for the Martin you had; those will probably have the most familiar feel when positioned in your lap.  If I'm not mistaken, the GO has a slightly wider waist than the old Taylor Jumbos, so that may be a guiding factor in your final decision.

A while back I did some comparison measurements for 3 guitars I have. Within a little tolerance, I measured 3 guitar bodies externally at the edges, and did not account for any protusions from the actual bodies measured, to include bridge, strap post, or designed 'bellies' (Gibson J 200 specs actually show shallow arc for back of guitar).

The guitars I measured are Gibson J 200 Jumbo, Taylor 818e Grand Orchestra, and Taylor 355 12 string Jumbo. I posted most of these stats in multiple posts in thread:

http://www.unofficialtaylorguitarforum.com/index.php?topic=6050.30

last post 2/14/16

* * *

Per request, I measured the waists and a couple more dimensions, all measured externally.
Here are length, upper bout, waist, lower bout, and depth.

818 is    20 1/2",    11 3/4", 10 7/16", 16 3/4", 4 3/4".
355 is   20 7/8",     12 1/8",   9 7/8",    17",      4 7/16".
J 200 is 20 15/16", 12 1/2", 10 1/4",   17",      4 7/8".

Couple of notes. Depth of 355 was re-measured to 4 7/16".
Taylor catalog shows 818 length at 20 5/8" and depth at 5".
Mine measured differently.
818e is still a big guitar, but slightly smaller than the jumbos. If I
had to guess, it would appear that the J 200 has the largest internal
volume. I don't have the capability to calculate that however. One of
my sons might be able to.

As to the other question, all of these fit comfortably on my thigh
playing in a sitting position. I am of average height and weight and
mostly play seated.

* * *

You got me thinking about low on the knee, so I did a little more
measuring. Just as baseball has WAR (wins above replacement), I now
have SAW (strings above waist). This would be the distance measured
from the treble e string perpendicularly to the nearest point on the
waist. Turns out that distance is a hair over 4 1/8" on both my 818e
and J200. This means that my seating posture/position is the same for
each guitar. I've had the J200 for 30 years. No wonder that the 818e
felt right at home to me when I first played it.

* * *

New notes:

Depth is measured at bottom at deepest point.
SAW for 355 is a hair less than 3 7/8"
The purpose of the SAW is to give an idea of how a guitar should relatively feel from a seated position.
I have no knowledge of the dimensions of the Martin guitar that kleolotke referenced, but if you can obtain them, a valid comparison can be made. Best guess is that they are all in the same ballpark (concert hall?). I also don't have any measurements for an xx6 Grand Symphony for comparison. Hopefully this will be of some use.
Sorry if it's overkill.

Don