Author Topic: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz  (Read 2172 times)

timfitz63

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Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« on: October 19, 2016, 07:24:18 PM »
Well, I searched a bit and have some ideas on this, but would still like to get input from those with more experience than me in this sort of thing.

Recently, I picked up a used 414ce.  When I initially was playing it (along with a few others I was considering for my travel 'beater') at Empire Music, it seemed fine.  As Joe and I were discussing the guitar options before me, he started noodling with the 414ce I ended up buying, and commented he thought the truss rod needed a tweak to remove a little of the relief.  After he adjusted it, the action did seem better to me, the guitar still sounded great, the price was right, and the deal was done.

Knowing the 414ce was going with me to Kentucky, it sat inside its case while I played the "Wild Grain" Rosewood Custom GA I'd also purchased during my time in Pittsburgh.  Then a curious thing happened last night when I pulled out the 414ce to play it:  I was getting string buzz on multiple strings when fretting basic chords like C, E, and F.  I think it's sometimes referred to as "fretting out."  Anyway, I sighted down the neck/fretboard, found that it was still nicely straight, and the action when playing was still to my liking.  But now the strings were buzzing...  Puzzling... ???

Today, I borrowed a 1/4-inch nut driver from one of my co-workers and put some relief back into the neck (counterclockwise adjustment on the truss rod nut).  But this, of course, caused the action to grow a bit higher than I'd prefer (although I can still comfortably play the guitar).  And as currently adjusted, I've not totally eliminated the string buzz; but it now only occurs on the "A" string (3rd & 5th frets) when I pluck the string pretty strongly.  I could add more relief to completely eliminate the buzz, no matter how hard the strings are plucked -- but then the action is getting ever higher...

Now, I've made truss rod adjustments on my other guitars -- typically in the other direction (clockwise adjustments) to remove some of the relief -- and have not encountered problems with string buzz.  So now I'm left to postulate how to put the neck relief back where I'd prefer it while eliminating the string buzz...?

Being a used guitar, there's no telling what the previous owner(s) may have done; filing the string grooves in the nut, sanding down the base of the saddle...?  I'm not sure if there's any way to ascertain those things by observation?  Or whether the symptoms I'm describing even suggest that those things may have been done -- although I suspect that doing either/both could cause the action to be lowered and the strings to buzz when the truss rod is adjusted to factory specifications.  But eliminating those possibilities for the moment, my research suggests that re-setting the neck (with different shims) may also correct the problem.

So what say you, oh forum gurus?  What is the next course of action in troubleshooting this problem?
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

timfitz63

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #1 on: October 21, 2016, 07:27:56 AM »
No one has any wisdom to offer...? ???
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

osprey92

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 09:43:17 AM »
Two things I'd check: neck angle and nut relief. How are those?
Current rotation:
2012 Taylor 414ce

Gutch

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 09:56:57 AM »
Difference in humidity between the shop and your home?  I find that this time of year sees pretty heavy fluctuations in RH%, and I'll get buzz one day and nothing the next.  I find this is particularly common with guitars that haven't been in the collection very long.  After a while, they "settle in" to the home environment and a final truss rod tweak gets it right for the season.

Just a thought...
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timfitz63

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 05:18:16 PM »
Thanks for the input, guys!

Two things I'd check: neck angle and nut relief. How are those?

Unfortunately, I'm unable to check either of those myself.  I'm going to try to get those sorts of things looked at tomorrow.

Difference in humidity between the shop and your home?  I find that this time of year sees pretty heavy fluctuations in RH%, and I'll get buzz one day and nothing the next.  I find this is particularly common with guitars that haven't been in the collection very long.  After a while, they "settle in" to the home environment and a final truss rod tweak gets it right for the season.

Just a thought...

It's a good thought, but there hadn't been a radical change in either temperature or humidity in this case.  I'd initially hoped that another truss rod tweak would make it all good, but it seems like something more needs to be done.

I spoke with Todd at Empire, who was very willing to help me out.  But without the guitar, there's only so much debugging he could do over the phone.  On Todd's suggestion, I'm going to take it over to Willcutt's tomorrow and try to at least get a diagnosis.  Todd's best guess aligns with the areas I was eyeing myself:  nut, saddle, and/or neck angle.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Craig

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #5 on: October 21, 2016, 05:46:08 PM »
if you suspect the saddle has been sanded then you can buy a new one for just a few dollars

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timfitz63

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2016, 08:48:53 AM »
if you suspect the saddle has been sanded then you can buy a new one for just a few dollars

That's good to know -- that it's not an expensive component if it needs to be replaced.  I'll have Mr. Willcutt check it.  Personally, I doubt that I'd be able to tell through inspection if the nut or saddle has been altered; even if it's a simple matter of measuring the height of the saddle or strings, I don't even have a ruler with me at the moment (I'm living in a hotel room...).  But an experienced luthier like Bob Willcutt almost certainly will be able to sort it out.

Through this thread I was hoping someone might know of another adjustment (besides truss rod adjustment) that I could perform myself, but it's looking more and more like I'm going to need some professional assistance with it.  I was playing the guitar last night; it's playable, but the string height is definitely higher than I'd like it, especially when playing barre chords.
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

Frettingflyer

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #7 on: October 22, 2016, 08:01:01 PM »
Not an adjustment, but I have had a Taylor with uneven frets. Put a straight edge on the frets, if it rocks at all one of them is high.
Good luck, I hate chasing these things but you know it will be great when corrected.
Dave
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timfitz63

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #8 on: October 22, 2016, 09:23:56 PM »
Not an adjustment, but I have had a Taylor with uneven frets. Put a straight edge on the frets, if it rocks at all one of them is high.
Good luck, I hate chasing these things but you know it will be great when corrected.

Funny you should mention the frets, Dave...

Bob Willcutt took one look at the guitar and pointed out some heavy fret wear, mainly on the first five frets, to me.  In retrospect there's probably a good chance at least one of the frets was uneven compared to the rest as well, although we didn't specifically check that.  The previous owner had also apparently installed medium-gauge strings on it, so that probably didn't help the matter either.  On the up side, the neck angle was good; the saddle did not appear to have been sanded down at all; and the nut grooves looked OK too.

As something of an aside, I did notice that the neck was unusually smooth right around the area one would be holding it 95% of the time; typically the 400-Series necks (like most of the Taylor lines) have a satin finish.  I'd initially attributed the smoothness to the previous owner putting some polish on the neck to make it more 'slick,' but perhaps the finish itself had been worn smooth because the previous owner was playing it a lot...?

In any case, the guitar is getting the first eleven frets replaced -- and as a result they will all be even as well, once the work is completed.  Also, there'll be new Elixir 80/20 Lights on it and the truss rod will get tweaked back to straight.

Still, it's puzzling why the strings suddenly started buzzing; I haven't a clue what could have changed between the time I bought the guitar in Pittsburgh and the first time I played it in Kentucky... ???  But I'm looking forward to getting it back with like-new playability!
« Last Edit: October 29, 2016, 08:56:08 PM by timfitz63 »
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)

timfitz63

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Re: Help In Troubleshooting String Buzz
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2016, 09:11:01 PM »
Got my 414ce back today.  It sounds and plays great, but it seems the buzzing problems was partly the guitar, and partly me.  The guitar did, indeed, need some new frets, but it also appears that my strumming is a bit sloppy...

But when presented to me for evaluation, I could still make the "A" string buzz with vigorous plucking on the 3rd and 5th frets -- just like when I handed it to them a week ago, albeit now the neck relief was set back to factory specifications.  After chatting with Bob Willcutt for a bit, he coached me about a couple of things:  holding the pick a bit more perpendicular and strumming parallel to the soundboard surface.  Still being a skeptic, I pressed him about why this particular guitar seemed to be susceptible to string buzz with my strumming technique (sloppy or otherwise), and none of my other guitars appeared to do it?  Bob disappeared for a few moments, and returned with one of the vintage Gibsons he displays near the repair shop, handed it to me, and told me to strum it and pluck it.  Sure enough, the "A" string buzzed in the same way...  He took that guitar from me and produced a new 814e Taylor; same result.

So the lesson here is the guitar isn't always to blame; sometimes it's operator error... ::)

In any case, the 414ce is back in action and plays like new!  (And I'm working on playing better...)
DN: 360e, 510ce, 510e-FLTD, 810ce-LTD (Braz RW), PS10ce
GA: 414ce, 614ce-LTD, 714ce-FLTD, BR-V, BTO (Makore, 'Wild Grain' RW, Blkwood), GAce-FLTD, K24ce, PS14ce (Coco, Braz RW, "Milagro"), W14ce-LTD
GC: 812ce-LTD TF, BTO TF ('Sinker'/Walnut, Engelmann/"Milagro"), LTG #400
GO: 718e-FLTD, BTO (Taz Myrtle)
GS: Custom 516e, BTO 12's (Taz Tiger Myrtle, 'Crazy' RW), 556ce, 656ce, K66ce, PS56ce ("Milagro")
GS Mini 2012 Spring LTD (Blackwood)
T3/B: Custom (Cu & Au Sparkle)
T5: C1, C5-12, S (Aztec Gold)