Author Topic: Question on 12 string tuning  (Read 2723 times)

Louis

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Question on 12 string tuning
« on: February 02, 2018, 06:57:07 PM »
Haven’t posted here for a while, every time I come around here I want to buy some thing I don’t really need  :-\ Been watching u tube videos just because and on 12 string tips and came across this one mentioning to tune down one full step ,and they say to put a capo on the 2nd fret and carry on in normal tuning .For kicks and giggles I tried that and especially the D cord just doesn’t sound right ,so I checked rechecked to make sure it was in tune and it was but my12 just didn’t sound in tune .So I said, heck with this put it back up to regular tuning and it sounds way better, can’t help but ask - is it me or any one else come across this ?
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Guitarsan

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #1 on: February 02, 2018, 07:12:12 PM »
Tuning down is not required for Taylor 12 strings. Tune up and play on. (On lesser 12 strings, your mileage may vary).
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TaylorGirl

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #2 on: February 02, 2018, 07:13:17 PM »
I have always kept my Taylor 12-strings in standard tuning. I have read on more than one occasion Bob recommends standard tuning, and he says not to worry about string tension on their 12's (assuming that's the reason these YouTube folks are recommending tuning down a step).
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ericjungemann

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #3 on: February 02, 2018, 11:00:37 PM »
I tune down a half step on my Taylor 12 string but it is in no way required.  I just do it to slightly reduce string tension (Elixir 12 string lights) for my aging hands and I also like the sound. 

But as others have pointed out, Taylor 12 strings were designed to be in normal tuning.

I watched a McGuinn set of lessons and he tunes down half a step as well.  Again, his Martin 12 strings and the Rickenbacker 12 string are fine at concert pitch.

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Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2018, 11:42:37 AM »
Tuning down is not required for Taylor 12 strings. Tune up and play on. (On lesser 12 strings, your mileage may vary).

All my 12-strings are kept in standard tuning, unless they are to be put away for extended periods. I've had no problems over the last three decades with any of them.

Edward

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2018, 12:27:28 PM »
Hey there Louis,

Good to hear from you, friend!  :)

I used to keep a Taylor 12 tuned down a full step, but with medium gauge elixir set.  I did this purely for tonal reasons to deepen the bottom end ...it was great, yielding not only more bass but more balance against all the chimey octaves.  Loved it, and the intonation was spot on.  I couldn't speak to whether intonation would be right with the lights, but it starts to feel a bit floppy down a full step w/o adjusting for the loss of tension so I wouldn't be surprised a bit if what you heard sounded "off."

That said, my current 12er is in standard, and I feel no need to try it lower because it's glorious as is.  So if you really want to experiment a full step down, I think going to mediums is the only way to truly judge the results. But if you like what you're hearing as it is, tuning down doesn't really get you anything since we all know Taylors are perfectly stable at concert pitch.

Edward
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 12:29:28 PM by Edward »

Joseph

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2018, 02:12:35 PM »
Good to hear from you again Louis!  Hoping that Taylor 12 string is living up to expectations!
I just never got used to hearing a 12 string with a capo, even though a Taylor seems to handle it well. I love jumbo guitars anyway... and capo-ing up just doesn't fit my ears.
I will use lighter gauge strings rather than capo up.... or transpose on the fly just to keep that deep, non-jangly, and thunderous 12 string sound.
I just had a complete fret job done to my Guild F512 and it stays in tune with a capo on it, but I just don't like the sound of it.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 02:54:48 PM by Joseph »
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donlyn

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2018, 03:35:03 PM »
Haven’t posted here for a while, every time I come around here I want to buy some thing I don’t really need  :-\ Been watching u tube videos just because and on 12 string tips and came across this one mentioning to tune down one full step ,and they say to put a capo on the 2nd fret and carry on in normal tuning .For kicks and giggles I tried that and especially the D cord just doesn’t sound right ,so I checked rechecked to make sure it was in tune and it was but my12 just didn’t sound in tune .So I said, heck with this put it back up to regular tuning and it sounds way better, can’t help but ask - is it me or any one else come across this ?

Louis,

My short answer is yes, I agree, but it's not quite that simple. I find that using a capo on either a six string or a twelve string can change the pitch a little bit. If the frets are positioned correctly, that probably shouldn't be too noticeable, especially if all strings are off by about the same amount using a capo.

Specifically for a 12 string, in the example you gave about the D chord using the capo at 2d fret (even if the frets are correctly positioned), the chord might sound a teeny bit sharp to your ear if you are used to playing in normal tuning. In an open position, I will presume that the all the strings lie across the nut at the same height. So when a given pair of strings is fretted, the strings are stretched about the same amount against the fret. When using a capo, the octave string is stretched a tad less, since behind the capo it's smaller diameter is pressed up (not down) against the capo where its companion string is maybe pressed further down (maybe a tad sharper) to fit under the capo. Thus when you fret your D chord, the strings as a pair may not be exactly in tune with each other. This may depend on how good or bad your musical hearing is, or exactly where you place the capo behind the fret. Or I may be way off base (bass) with this.

Getting back to the D chord, what happens if you fret it without a capo? Given what you said, it must sound different, maybe more correct or at least more what you are used to. In addition, let's say the D chord is normally fretted. I will also assume that you are not wrapping your thumb around to fret the bass on F#. So if you strum your chord on 4 strings, you are still playing an open pair of D strings whether or not one of the fretted pairs is slightly off-pitch. So your D string is correct, your D on the second string might be a little off and maybe not much noticed due to the effect of the D string, and the fretted A and F# might also be a little off, but not that noticeable because they are not D notes. If you are playing the A string open along with the open D string, the overall effect should be lessened also. Once again I may be off base with this, but some experiments with a chromatic tuner might be enlightening. Bottom line is that I would agree that something isn't quite right to my ears using a capo.

At this point, some background so you can better understand where I'm coming from. First, I've owned and played a 12 string (not the same one) since the late sixties. As such, I still tune my Taylor 355 down a full step if only because that is what I'm used to, and now also because it's easier to play (fret) as I get older. And second, I never capo my 12 string anymore. And I only capo a six to play one or two songs, specifically "Here Comes the Sun" and "That'll Be the Day". (Capo on 7th fret and 5th fret respectively.) I just like open strings.

And a quick note about tuning a 12 string. I always had issues with tuning one and suspected for a long time that the extra tension played silly buggers while the tuning was actually in progress. When I got my first chromatic tuner, I found that if I started tuning on the bass strings, by the time I got to the treble strings, the bass strings were off pitch a bit. So it requires 2 passes to get it in tune. Back in the day, I remember seeing a folk singer, Michael Cooney, who is a guitar-centric multi-instrumentalist. He liked to play 12 string, and he would open tune and re-tune between songs. Always admired him for that talent. Anyway, he would talk to the audience while tuning, and once mentioned that 'tuning a 12 string was like tuning a centipede'. Still like that phrase.

Don

Oh yeah, I use Elixir '12 string light' strings on my 12.

For extra credit, what is the plural of capo (somehow capos looks bad to me)? Past tense? Participle?





« Last Edit: February 03, 2018, 03:41:42 PM by donlyn »
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458e

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #8 on: February 04, 2018, 01:23:47 PM »
As several already said, Taylor 12 strings are fine with standard tuning. However, I tune 1/2 step down because I like the sound better. I think 12 string guitars sound better tuned down.

Louis

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #9 on: February 04, 2018, 09:45:27 PM »
Reading and rereading your answers I’m not all the crazy and think our glorious leader Bob T should stick his head in here cause the answers you all have he can use in the Wood and Steel 12er department .I was aware that 12 string can handle standard tuning but you know how it’s goes, we come across this and that, and try difference things .And like you say Ed it did sounds floppy way down one full step .I got roped in to doing a Jonny Cash birthday bash and wanted to go with the 12 for “Green Grass of home “ and “Sunday morning coming down” and capo”d up it sounded beyond bad, tried 3 different  tuners and a chromatic to make sure it was ok,and man it was bad Especially the D like you said Joe.So I went back up to standard and it’s completely different and totally happy, and no more listening to smart tips. Not doing to good at going and seeing you Ed ,but I am going Vegas in June for a flight simulator conference on the 9th week end .Seems you can’t get work now days without a video so I made one about 3 min, just a promo section of my genre and voice style. Send me your email Ed and I’ll sent it to you.
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458e

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #10 on: February 05, 2018, 04:42:26 AM »

[/quote]

All my 12-strings are kept in standard tuning, unless they are to be put away for extended periods. I've had no problems over the last three decades with any of them.
[/quote]

I never understood the theory on tuning it down when put away for extended periods. I understand when shipping a guitar, but just sitting in the case there is no difference when regular played or not.

Edward

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #11 on: February 05, 2018, 10:20:16 AM »
Experimentation is never a "bad" thing, so long as we maintain our wits about us when judging the results. ;)
PM comin at ya, man :)

Edward

TLAW

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #12 on: February 05, 2018, 10:37:12 AM »

For extra credit, what is the plural of capo (somehow capos looks bad to me)? Past tense? Participle?
[/quote]


Capi?   :)
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Edward

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #13 on: February 05, 2018, 06:02:59 PM »
Tomatoes
Potatoes
Geese ...ooops ;)

Edward

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Re: Question on 12 string tuning
« Reply #14 on: February 05, 2018, 07:06:06 PM »

For extra credit, what is the plural of capo (somehow capos looks bad to me)? Past tense? Participle?


Capi?   :)
[/quote]

 potatoes, tomatoes, dominoes......and capos.  Go figure.
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