ES2 dialing in a good sound adjustments

[JdOzone]

I just got a 914ce SB and love it. Played it for days unplugged and was blown away..
Then I set up Bose L1s2 with B2 sub and T1Dmix. I also go through a voicelive extreme 3, so the options for eq are pretty limitless. The sound sucked qwaunky mids, Guitar top noise, pick noise, and a nasal phase problem...

I adjusted for 3 days, even bought a Radial Tonebone pz pre,,,,,,,
Yet nothing fixed it. I’ve been playing live for decades and I could not figure out why my Martin DCPA1 plugged and played so nicely and why this awesome 914cs sound sucked.  If you rolled out mids it became thin etc...

I dove into all forums and tech talk I could find.  I used to be a avid Ovation player until they sold company and I worked at NASA as a electronic eng, so I know the real history of piezios and how Mr. Kamen created them.  He used 6 separate piezios. Everyone else could not do this due to patent. So most went with one piezio under saddle.   

This got me thinking. The new approach by Taylor’s ES2 is a great idea 3 separate piezios onto back of bridge nut except. Since bridge nut is one piece there is crosstalk.... the original design of ovation used a bridge kind of like a start or Les Paul every string on its own bridge piece.

I found  the low piezio still picks up the d and the high piezio still picks up the g.   (I checked this by backing off mid piezio all the way...  later to check my thoughts )

So  I adjusted 914s piezios rotated mid counter clockwise 90* and adjusted low and high clockwise 45*.   Since the new es2 internal pre is mid heavy this did the trick. This lowered the mids and boosted highs and lows a bit. Off setting the extra vibrations picked up from crosstalk.

I believe it is both a over amplification of mids but also a bit of a phase alignment thing between the crosstalk of the strings on the different piezios.  After this adjustment my Guitar even plugged straight into bose with flat eq sounds perfect.  It went from a nightmare sound with almost unusable b and g string honk to a perfect acoustic tone.

I then went back with equipment and even turned off the amp module for acoustic in voicelive 3e.  I still use tonebone pz pre because it sounds awesome and gives you dedicated knobs for eq tweaks live, but not to shape sound just low cut high pass, and mid adjustments for picking or strumming songs...   

I was getting scared after spending that kind of money on this Guitar and not getting a good plugged sound. I have read many people trying to explain the qwaunky sound they get and the extreme eqing they do to try and fix it.   Don’t be afraid to adjust piezio settings that is the fix not extreme eq...

I hope this helps other to Not Panic.....    and remember your Towel, only always...

Jd Ozone
Www.jdozone.com

[Edward]

Very cool, Jd ...thanks for the detailed writeup, as well as the background!

Funny you mention Ovations as, long ago, I had a ca.70s Legend that was my only acoustic, and it sounded great in whatever PA I plugged into.  There was always "that guy" that would be quick to dismiss (dare I say "poo poo") this guitar bc it was a "plastic" guit, but plugged in, that criticism was silenced in short order.  Your background on indiv piezos certainly helps explain the balanced acoustic tone I got!

FWIW, since the inception of the ES2, I have been less than impressed, particularly since the bottom end (and mid-lows) sounded artificially boosted, far more than an acoustic guitar actually has!  Then I read that Taylor revoiced their preamp for the ES2 ...so I hoped for better.  I just recently picked up a 2016 with ES2 and, while sounding better than the last one I tried years ago if memory serves, still is not great.  I will tinker with each piezo bank the next time I get some time with a PA.  Big thanks for the tip!

Edward

[JdOzone]

Edward,

You are so right I took so much crap from everyone about my ovations, until they heard me plugged in.  They sounded thin unplugged but the offset sound holes and the piezio system let you dial in any eq setting with no feedback or problems even before Bose L systems..  They spoiled me for a live sound I expect to hear.  That’s why the company has been passed around over last 8 years. They buy it and make a agreement to be able to use patent then sell to someone else.

The sad thing is Mr. Kaman did not get on cover of guitar or drum or music mags or articles when he died..  It’s a sin without him, Glen Cambel, and Jerry Reed, we would all still be standing still in front of a mic with terrible sound.   Fiddle, guitar, piano, Also electronic drums are completely adapted piezio technology.

Kaman industries not only for us to the moon, but Mr Kaman was a guitar enthusiast. Glen Cambel went to him for his tv show so he would not have to stand still like HeHaw did.. Jerry reed had a luthier trying piezio and then they all worked together..   Music history that no one talks about.  We all owe Mr. Kaman a place in Music history..

About the piezio adjustment, I truly believe it is the crosstalk between piezios Taylor should try a 3 piece bridge nut..  If you have ever dialed in electronic drums you learn what havoc crosstalk can cause....    lower mid tighten bass and treble and things clean up nicely.  If I hey deserve toned a nut with a spacer between A&D. And G&B their system may become the best idea.

[Sprintbob]

JD,

Thanks for posting. Taylor’s cutsheet on the ES2 system offers fairly straightforward advice on adjusting the piezo’s that makes sense but your real world experience is even better.

I have four 12 fret Taylors with ES2; my 2014 812, my 2017 K22, my 2016 562, and my newest 714. My first Taylor (an 814) had ES1.3 and what I noticed about ES2 (first with my 812) was that it seemed “hotter” (i.e. more output if that is the right term). But I’ve also noticed the output/responsiveness of the system is different on all of my guitars and I’ve noted a “quack” kind of tone at times. I think it is worth sitting down with each guitar and making slight adjustments to the piezos to try to shape the sound to what sounds best and your experience gives me more confidence to try that.

I use K&K passive pickups in my Collings and my Robinson. What I’ve noticed with ES2 in my plugged in playing at home is the “hotter” response I noted above but I seem to get a cleaner (more to come) and balanced tone from the guitars with the K&K pickups. The balance might be addressed by tweaking the piezo’s on the ES2 guitars. The clean I refer to is that with all the ES2 guitars, I am always dealing with a low level hum in the background that is not present when I play plugged in with the K&K equipped guitars. I think the ES2 is picking up noise from other electronics and I try to unplug and turn off anything in the room not being used but I seem to never be able to fully get rid of it. My cables are not balanced so I wonder if going to a balanced cable will get rid of the background hum (again, not bad but there).

For playing plugged in at home, I go straight from the guitars to a Fishman Loudbox Mini via a standard TRS cable. For K&K guitars, I use the amp’s tone controls to shape the sound. With the Taylor Guitars, I have the extra EQ with the ES2 which seems redundant for high and low and gain/volume. But I note that a lot of players use a DI/pre-amp box between the guitar and the amp. I’ve been considering trying one but wonder if there is really any benefit.

For recording I use the same setup but run an XLR cable from the XLR output on the Loudbox to an XLR input on a Zoom H5. I have to setup on the H5 for that XLR input to be a mono signal. It gives me a decent clean home recording that I can share with others but it is a mono recording which sounds kind of flat. What I like about this setup is that I get minimal to no background noise while recording.

Sorry for getting a bit off track but good discussion to compare notes on.

[Sprintbob]

As a followup to my post above, I spoke to Taylor customer service and they told me that with an active system like ES2, it is normal to get a small amount of background hum that you should only hear when you are not playing. I would venture a guess that in a pro level live production or studio recording scenario, a good sound engineer can easily remove what I hear with software or a mixing board.

[Craig]

I've also noticed this, if a pair of strings are sounding strange then try adjusting the adjacent screws. There definitely seems to be some phase interaction between pickup elements.

Craig

[JdOzone]

Ok a buddy brought over his guitar with ES2 and I used my oscope and probes to actually check alignment on different piezios.  You would be surprised at how much bleedover there is and the phase off alignment.  I truly believe this causes the weird sounds sometimes from mids.

I am actually going to buy a new bridge piece. I am then going to cut it between A&D and G&B.  I’m then going to cut to pieces of cork to put between them to keep nut in place and isolate between pieces...  This may be a easy well after figured out way of isolating piezios. 

The other thing I found is the es2 may I am not sure be wired where bass knob and high knob turn up those individuals piezios.  If so that’s why it is harder to dial in sounds because with cross talk you are no longer just dialing up individual freq it also boost or cuts the crosstalk and out of phase signals...

My fix I’m going to try will not hurt my Guitar it’s a simple bridge nut replacement I’ll still have the original to put back in..   But if this works it could make the es2 system the best system around. 
I’m excited to try....  I will keep people posted....   

Maybe there are some others better at nut work that could try this also.  The more we look into it the more I believe we could make it even better..  Good luck

[Edward]

OK Jd, now this is getting really interesting!!!

I recall a guy I played with who had the "ghost" setup on his Tele, individual piezo sensors for each string saddle.  Of course, this was all to drive  his synth module (all Midi, natch), but the other benefit is being able to isolate each individual string's output and offer the user the ability to balance and tailor said output.  What you propose fascinates me, if only because it appears as such a simple and intuitive way to address a problem, yet no one has applied it to acoustics (well, except Herr Kaman, of course).  And if this pans out, what an elegantly simple DIY solution!  I am eagerly awaiting your results, sir!!! 

Edward

[nhbiker1961]

The ES2 has been a bit of a frustration to me. My last Taylor purchase ( 414ce-R) had the ES-T pre-amp in it with the ES2. While this sounded great at home or in low volume venues, it lacked the punch needed in loud venues. I ended up swapping out the pre-amp for the ES2 pre-amp. This gave me the punch but did not sound as good. I also found my 214 sounding better at really loud bars than the 414. Long story short, I ended up going the way of Doyle Dykes. I am now playing a Godin hybrid for live performances with my 214 as a backup or used for softer songs in quieter venues. My 414 has been retired to my house only. I love my Taylors guitars but not really thrilled with the ES2. My playing style really needs both an electric and an acoustic sound or having both at the same time.

[TLAW]

so as i barely put the key to the set screws....all 3 pickups immediately sunk into the recess approx a 1/4 of an inch...Im assuming the fact that I can reach inside and move the conglomeration by hand in and out by a 1/4" (or more) is not good?..... xxxx plus for this guitar......man I wish I would have went "all natural"..


$, profanity, per forum rules.

[JdOzone]

Ok I got a suitable bridge piece for a experiment, I’m going to cut it this weekend.  Any ideas on divider material would be appreciated. I’ve thought about trying cork and even filling gaps in place with fish tank 100%silicon, let harden won’t hurt finish or gear, but worry about it getting in piezio cavity.  So thought about making a nut slot on wood same size and put together in it, then move to guitar...  I really think that’s why every time you see multiple piezio systems they are separated bridge nuts.. The ones without separation always have one long thin pizeo. I Bella eve through separate amps and cross bleed it causes the kwanky sounding high mid andbout of phase A D sound both caused by these cross over points.. 

I hope others will try and comment. As long as you loosen your pizeos before pulling bridge nut you are fine. Write down how many turns for a rough estimate. The engineers at Taylor told me personally that they tighten by hand listening.  That leaves a lot to individual preference and hearing. I know their is a easy fix out there, I am a disabled war vet with to much time on my hands ....  lol

Please post any info
Jd

[Edward]

JD,

No need to fill in gaps at all, IMHO ...why add anything that could potentially transfer any vibrations, no matter how slight.  This is a test mule: go bare bones and simply cut the saddle appropriately and mount up the pieces! 

Edward

[JdOzone]

Edward don’t you think the pieces could move, I guess not though with 2 strings on each piece.

I will cut them this weekend, I have a acoustic show Thursday, so just like new gear I won’t change it right before a show though...    so I will do install after Thur. I’m practicing with the digitech trio plus band peddle and looper.  Oh and wow on that pedal also...  band in a box

[Edward]

Tele saddles are two strings per barrel so no, I’d fully expect the two strings’ tension to be ample  pressure to keep the saddle from moving.. Afterall, the saddle is also in a nice slot that prevents fire/aft tilting so I think it would be plenty secure. Post-gig review when you’re ready! 

Edward

[JdOzone]

My only worry is sweat. I had to use silicone around my martin dcpa1 saddle but because sweat was shorting out piezio.  But if it works I could put bead of silicone around all pieces and gaps..  I play in south Florida sweat is a big issue.... Most shows are outdoors at tiki bars.