Unofficial Taylor Guitar Forum - UTGF

Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Taylor Acoustic & Electric Guitars => Topic started by: bkkpicker on December 28, 2013, 09:13:23 AM

Title: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: bkkpicker on December 28, 2013, 09:13:23 AM
I've been looking at these 2 instruments and played them a few times in the store. They are both nice guitars, quite different despite similar specifications. My question concerns the pricing on these, which is very different despite similar specs. Normally one would expect directly competitive offerings from 2 leading manufacturers to be similar, but the Taylor has a street price around $XXXX while the Martin is around $XXXX.

The Martin is solid rosewood back and sides, which you would think would be more expensive than the sorta rosewood-like ovangkul on the Taylor. It's true that the Taylor has an ebony fretboard and bridge, while the Martin is richlite. But richlite seems to be used on a lot of quality guitars these days, including some Les Paul customs.

So is the Taylor overpriced, or is the Martin just a good deal at the price? If they were similarly priced, I think I would choose the Taylor, despite the Martin's better bass response. But the large difference in price makes the the choice a bit harder.



edited for $-
please utilize PMs for pricing discussions
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: MikeB on December 28, 2013, 10:54:42 AM
Have you tried them both plugged in?  I played both last week, and I'm not really fond of the ovangkoi sound (I tried a 414 and 416) in these models.  The Martin sounded pretty good unplugged.  I didn't try any of them plugged in.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: oogaboogachiefwalkingdeer on December 28, 2013, 04:23:57 PM
I would take the Rosewood any day.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Jersey tuning on December 28, 2013, 07:26:06 PM
The Martin looks like a better value at its street price, but I defer to the 414/416 owners in the house.  Rosewood has more cachet, but ovangkol may be highly underrated...........
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Edward on December 28, 2013, 08:44:36 PM
Some years ago, I had heard that at least a few luthiers would confide that the raw price difference between RW and other "typical" tone woods such as mahog, ovangkol, or sapele is hardly worth noting.  Barring the truly rare woods, the price difference between like guitars and their woods is due more to perception of value, model differentiation (since a rw guitar is priced higher it must be better), and "cache" (since we all know a guit that sports "that" wood obviously is "better") ...and this mindset over many yeeeeeaaarrrs reinforced these perceptions, or perhaps more accurately, these wood "stereotypes."

Today's RW prices??  Who knows ...I don't run in those circles.  But whatever the difference in RW supply today vs yesteryear, I still hear the very same perceptions between this wood and that.  May I respectfully suggest one actually listens to the guitar, weigh it's tone against one's own tastes and preferences, and only then choose accordingly?  ...irrespective of wood species, let alone model designation.

How many folks have stated very clearly their preference of a 100/200 over the 300 or 400 model?  Kudos to these folks!  Same should apply with wood choice.  The particular species along with its body size and build parameters will determine the guitar's overall voice; too much weight is assigned to just wood species, IMHO.  And marketing has only reinforced this bias.  Let your own ears and gut make your ultimate tonal decision.

BTW, to bk,
You said that were the prices the same you'd choose the Taylor.  So the preference is clear, right?  Only you can decide whether your preference justifies the difference in cost.  But to weigh the diff on the basis of RW vs, richlight, vs whatever misses the point entirely, in my mind.  It's an instrument: choose based on the voice and playablitlity first.  After owning any guitar for even a short amount of time, the difference in cost will be forgotten, but the tone you had really wanted but failed to choose will remain in your head ...and likely nag at you until you satisfy your true tonal itch.  Again, all IMHO  :)

Edward
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Lizzy on December 28, 2013, 09:29:18 PM
I agree with Edward that the difference in cost will be forgotten if you buy the guitar whose tone you love. Based on my own experience, the purchases I have overthought and tried to analyze are the purchases I have regretted. Maybe playing the guitars again will help cement your decision....one of them is bound to call to you more than the other. 
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: mgap on December 28, 2013, 11:38:11 PM
The 414 will most certainly have a better fit and finish, looks much nicer.  Ebony fingerboard, and bridge rather that richlite.  NT neck rather than simple dovetail joint.  Martin uses plywood for the construction block.  The neck of the 414 is made of Mahogany, with the OMPCA4 undetermined hardwood.

There are some good reasons the 414ce is a more expensive guitar than the OMPCA4.  When it comes down to it playing them with a open mind will tell you which one to get.  I would also show you that with the tone chart below, that Ovangkol has as much bass response, but has a better mid range than rosewood.   You will be able to cut through their overtones better.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: catan on December 29, 2013, 01:49:51 AM
Just compare a LTD 414ce rosewood with the OMCPA4 rosewood, they should have Fall '13 LTD 414ce in stores.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: bkkpicker on December 29, 2013, 05:11:30 AM
Thanks to everyone for the helpful replies.

I'm the sort of player who is more into the music than the gear. I don't collect guitars, I just play 'em. But I like to get good value for my money. I thought both were fine instruments, I was just puzzled by the fact that the Taylor was priced more than the approximately equivalent Martin.

Someone suggested to me that it wasn't so much a difference in the cost of the materials and labor, but more an issue of Martin being aggressive in a market space that Taylor has come to own (OOO size acoustic electrics).

Certainly Taylor does a great job of marketing their guitars. The Taylor guitars in the shop were all nicely set up with fairly fresh strings and made a nice impression. The Martin had been hanging around in the shop for a while and the strings were old and it needed a proper setup.

I ended up buying the Taylor 414ce, based on playability, fit and finish and dealer support (I live in Asia and the dealer is the country distributor for Taylor.) But I thought the Martin was a very good guitar and the price/value was very attractive. I'm sure I would have been happy with it too. In my experience, if you play a guitar long enough you adjust to its character and learn how to get the best out of it. I love a good guitar as much as the next guy, but I don't let the gear play me.



edited for $
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: michaelw on December 29, 2013, 12:48:57 PM
Just compare a LTD 414ce rosewood with the OMCPA4 rosewood, they should have Fall '13 LTD 414ce in stores.
the 13 Fall 414ceLTD is a cedar top grand auditorium, while the OMCPA4 is a sitka top OM, which is closer to a X12 body shape
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/414ce-fltd

congratulations on the new guitar, 'picker 8)

in the end, imho, the instrument should not be "in the way" & allows one's personal expression through the music to flow,
no matter who makes it, what it's made out of, how it's made or where it's made, with tone, playability & value being key

there are a few differences, though & martin has dropped & added so many PA models since the
introduction in 2011, along with material, electronics & neck joint changes, it's difficult to keep track -
Martin discontinued the model closest to the 414ce, which was the GPCPA3 &
at the end, the PA3 had a mortise & tenon 16 series style neckjoint, select
hardwood neck, richlite fretboard & bridge, Fishman aura & a flat-top case

a review of the GPCPA3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSRONK6LaRg (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSRONK6LaRg)

if Taylor were to make a model similar to the GPCPA4, it would likely be
closer to a fall 13 214ceFLTD, but with solid back & sides & 1 3/4" nut
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/214ce-fltd (http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/214ce-fltd)

a review of the standard 214ce
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8_77U0UgA (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yx8_77U0UgA)

comparing a fall 11 412ceFLTD to the discontinued OMCPA3, the 412 has a mahogany neck
ebony fretboard, bridge & bridge pins, CV bracing which is the same bracing pattern for the
09-13 812ce, gold tuners small slotted diamond fretmarkers & an archtop hardshell case -
other than the satin back & sides & 3 ring rosette. the 412ceFLTD specs are closest
to the discontinued OMCPA2, with the OM having a gloss body & pearl rosette

at respective $ points & specs, the "closest" comparison would likely be the GPCPA5 & 114ce

114ce
http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/114ce (http://www.taylorguitars.com/guitars/acoustic/114ce)
sapele neck, sapele laminate back & sides, ebony fretboard &
bridge & the same neckjoint as models that retail for up to 8X the $

GPCPA5
http://www.martinguitar.com/new/item/3276-gpcpa5.html (http://www.martinguitar.com/new/item/3276-gpcpa5.html)
laminate stratbond neck, HPL back & sides, richlite fretboard &
bridge & a neck joint that has been phased out on models barely 2X the $

there is nothing "wrong" with the used of manufactured materials, as they can
serve their purpose quite well in an array of applications, such as countertops -
if there is a way to sustainably & responsibly use natural materials that have a proven track
record of desired attributes, including tone & feel, with all other things being equal, which
they rarely are, taking any $ difference into account, i'd rather lean toward actual wood first

Taylor's tag-line very well could be "the tone & feel of wood & steel", because their solid top models are essentially
all solid wood, with just a bit of glue between solid wood laminate layers & the neck block, which is laminate for stability -
i doubt that a lexan headstock overlay or a plastic truss rod cover is going to affect tone all that much ;)
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: catan on December 29, 2013, 02:53:33 PM
I also think that the 314ce vs GPCPA4 is a comparison worth nothing, albeit the price difference
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Edward on December 29, 2013, 09:20:34 PM
Good deal, bkkp!  In the final analysis, you ended up with the guitar that felt more at home to you; that's really the point that will offer lasting satisfaction as a "good price" can never sound or play better with time :)

Edward
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Lizzy on December 29, 2013, 10:44:09 PM
Congrats on your new 414, have a great time with it!
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: seanD on February 19, 2014, 09:20:10 PM
Yet another take on the Martin OMCPA4 vs Taylor 414ce discussion.

I like both Martins and Taylors (Gibsons as well) and own them all. I played the rosewood LTD and OM side by side with good strings, and was struck by a few things.

The Taylor is bright and chime-like across the mids and highs, with very active harmonics, acoustically and plugged in. It will probably settle down as the top ages to reveal a more subdued balance. The electronics are responsive and flexible. Playability is fantastic across the fretboard. Build quality and aesthetics, well...it's a Taylor.

Though some people believe Martin is trying to build a Taylor "14" copy, the sound is very different, indeed "classic" Martin with warm bass and focused articulation across the mids and highs. I played an OM28 in the mix to verify this impression. Though the Martin is more subdued in its voicing now, as it ages and gets played in, more overtones will emerge. Martins always start out life a bit tight, but grow in tone with lots of play. For this reason, even small body Martins are hard to overdrive in play.

The electronics are pretty good as well, though less flexible than the Taylor. The performing artist neck is a huge winner, it feels a bit like my '62 Japanese Stratocaster reissue that I love so much. Much easier to play than my D35, which can be a beast to handle at times.

I'm actually looking for a plug and play guitar, and they both fit the bill. In view of the fact I can buy an open box Martin for almost half the price of a Taylor LTD, I'm probably going to grab a Martin. Price being no object, the Taylor would be a sweet temptation and more than likely steal my heart!

Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: michaelw on February 19, 2014, 10:52:51 PM
for me, the f1 analog electronics used in the PA4 series falls a bit short tonally, of even the ES-T used in the 100/200s & i believe
one of the reasons for that is the UST that's in the f1 is the sonicore, which is also used in other applications with the isys preamp
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fishman-Onboard-Preamps-Isys-T-EQ-w-Tuner-Sonicore-Undersaddle-Pickup-/251405852880?_trksid=p2054897.l4275 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Fishman-Onboard-Preamps-Isys-T-EQ-w-Tuner-Sonicore-Undersaddle-Pickup-/251405852880?_trksid=p2054897.l4275)

comparing something a little closer to body size & woods is a 11 fall 412ceLTD & here's a NOS one with full warranty
http://www.candmmusic.com/products/Taylor-412ce-Fall-Limited-Edition-Guitar-5285.html (http://www.candmmusic.com/products/Taylor-412ce-Fall-Limited-Edition-Guitar-5285.html)
mahogany neck, ebony fretboard & bridge, CV bracing (currently used on the 900 series/up, ES1 electroncs with
actual bass & treble boost/cut controls & an archtop hardshell case that fits the guitar like a glove, i can see where
the extra coin goes & with any type of glued in neckjoint, i think the extra few $ & piece of mind of having a warranty
to back it up is more than worth what little can be saved on a used/blem/restock that has no warranty coverage
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/martin-performing-artist-series-custom-omcpa4-rosewood-orchestra-acoustic-electric-guitar#productDetail (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/guitars/martin-performing-artist-series-custom-omcpa4-rosewood-orchestra-acoustic-electric-guitar#productDetail)

i'm looking to compare a 14 spec 814ce to a GPCPA1, which would be a closer, more even/fair match up, imho, but that'll have to wait
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: fretted on February 20, 2014, 11:40:02 AM
I don't know if it's still happening, but for a long time Indian Rosewood was so inexpensive, it was used for concrete forms in Asia especially Japan. I believe India is becoming more insistent on in-country milling.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: seanD on March 04, 2014, 03:52:15 PM
Thanks for the reply, and the referral link.

I agree that 400 series Taylors are great, I have one. At that price, I might just grab a 714ce with Cedar, for the instantly played in sound that particular guitar evokes. I see them barely used around the same price as the 414ce LTD, which kind of duplicates my 422R in sound.
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: Earl on March 04, 2014, 05:15:07 PM
I have a 2001 vintage 414ce which spoke to me while travelling on a business trip.  I bought it on the spot and left it at that dealer until i could get back (not on the airlines) a few weeks later.  I like the ovangkol tone a lot, and the color / figure on my particular guitar looks like somewhat plain koa.  Since I play a lot of Hawaiian music, I am really into koa for guitars and ukes.  Several players have offered me even up trades for D-28's and HD-28's, but why would I go backwards?  I have also let a couple of pro's play it at guitar camps, and gotten reactions like, "Hmmmm.... I should probably reconsider Taylors".  And that is saying something when that player has his own signature model Martin......
Title: Re: Taylor 414ce vs Martin OMCPA4 rosewood
Post by: catan on March 05, 2014, 05:11:45 PM
I made a similar comparison of GPCPA4 rosewood with 414ce LTD (they are practically the same woods/shape) but the 414ce won out with its sonic identity in the 800 series. The GPCPA4RW was not bad sounding either, and I would take it over a vanilla 414ce simply because of the EIR and its full sound which I am partial to.